UK’s over reaction to Omicron.

Alegrias1

Common sense and encouraging words from Chris Whitty. (of course!)

news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-professor-chris-whitty-to-be-questioned-by-mps-on-omicron-as-a-million-could-be-isolating-with-covid-on-christmas-day-12469075?postid=3116651#liveblog-body

I find it interesting the headline is about warnings and huge numbers being admitted to hospital, while the content is a lot more informative. And encouraging.

That's quite a normal tactic. Unfortunately, quite a high percentage of people never read beyond the headline and possibly the first few sentences.

Alegrias1

If it wasn't for the vaccine and the booster, the number of 55+ people in hospital would be much higher. High numbers of that group are vaccinated, there's millions of them, so even if a small proportion get ill, that's still quite a high number. growstuff posted a great Venn diagram earlier this week that explained it really well.

And there's no inconsistency between most hospitalisations being in 55+ people who have been vaccinated, and ICU being full of unvaccinated young people. Maybe the 55+ vaccinated people go in for a couple of days and go home, the unvaccinated ones aren't so fortunate.

Exactly! I'll see if I can find that Venn diagram again. I can't remember where I found it, but there was a clear explanation which went with it.

rosie1959

Thank you Alegrias I will look
This virus whichever version seems so unpredictable
A few of my sons friends have tested positive via regular lateral flows they didn't even know they were ill apart from a slight case of the sniffles yet in some it requires hospitalisation

And that's precisely why everybody should consider themselves at risk, unless they live permanently in a box and don't have contact with anybody.

I suppose Growstuff we will always be at risk to a certain extent and as you say nobody can live in a box for the indefinate future

It's not unpredictable, if people understand risk. Think of Russian Roulette. Somebody will get shot with live ammo, although the majority won't. Personally, I don't want to take that kind of risk.

choughdancer

@Dickens; this was posted earlier today. It's a copy and paste 'link', to avoid the risk of direct clicking on links. I so wish I could post on here all the conversations on the profile I have been following; there is just so much like this!

www.bitchute.com/video/X6zCggwb6Z89/

The "Great Reset" was never intended to be about some new take over. Think back to the beginning of the pandemic. People started caring about each other a bit more and some were optimistic that there could be a more gentle way of doing things, with issues such as the environment and personal wellbeing being more important than economics.

Conspiracy theorists have hi-jacked some of the ideas to further their own ideas. Unfortunately, there are those who are persuaded by claptrap such as that video. Others have tried to analyse their motives.

Yiayia70

We have got to learn to live with omicron, it will continue to mutate as does the flu virus. Get vaccinated and let’s get on with normality now.

What do you actually mean when you say "we have got to learn to live with Omicron"?

... come to that, Delta - or any other variants that might emerge?

Are you against masks in crowded spaces, or social distancing when feasible?

I've heard many people say that we've just got to learn to live with it. But they don't explain what they mean in reality.

Just as a point of reference, people changed their behavioural patterns during the 1918 flu pandemic, but those changes did not last for decades - it wasn't a permanent fixture of life.

I’m appalled at the criticism Whitty has been getting from some members of the government, some of which have had to be retracted I believe.

Alegrias1

Because the vaccine is not 100% effective.

And because many of the people in hospital don't fall into the "vulnerable" category.

And because many of the people in hospital don't fall into the "vulnerable" category.

I think this is what some are missing. Young, fit and healthy people are succumbing to the virus.

And another point is that it isn't necessarily the virus that causes the damage - sometimes, long term - it can also be the individual's own response to it that makes it so lethal.

Much of the damage is caused by a cytokine storm, which is an over-reaction of the immune system. Scientists are still working on the exact mechanisms. What would appear to happen is that some people knock out the virus right at the start of infection. Vaccinations usually do this. However, in some cases, the infection continues and the body tries to rid itself of the virus by a massive over-reaction. There's a theory that there's a tiny piece of faulty DNA involved for some people. The virus attacks multiple organs, not just lungs, although most people who die suffer from respiratory failure. Blood clots stop oxygen from reaching vital organs, including the lungs.

Some people are at higher risk, but everybody is at some risk.

This article is over a year old and knowledge has moved on, but it explains cytokine storms.

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01446/full

MayBee70

I’m appalled at the criticism Whitty has been getting from some members of the government, some of which have had to be retracted I believe.

Hmm! One of the MPs who criticised Whitty was Joy Morrissey, the current MP for Beaconsfield, Dominic Grieve's former seat. She has an interesting Wiki profile:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_Morrissey

This is what she and others posted:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59680908

growstuff

choughdancer

@Dickens; this was posted earlier today. It's a copy and paste 'link', to avoid the risk of direct clicking on links. I so wish I could post on here all the conversations on the profile I have been following; there is just so much like this!

www.bitchute.com/video/X6zCggwb6Z89/

The "Great Reset" was never intended to be about some new take over. Think back to the beginning of the pandemic. People started caring about each other a bit more and some were optimistic that there could be a more gentle way of doing things, with issues such as the environment and personal wellbeing being more important than economics.

Conspiracy theorists have hi-jacked some of the ideas to further their own ideas. Unfortunately, there are those who are persuaded by claptrap such as that video. Others have tried to analyse their motives.

Exactly! I like the sound of the great reset if it helps us be kinder; to tread more lightly on the earth; and most importantly, not to value everything by its financial worth. One very worrying thing is that the conspiracy theorists (the ones I follow anyway) believe that man-made climate change is also a conspiracy to take away their freedom.

growstuff

Much of the damage is caused by a cytokine storm, which is an over-reaction of the immune system. Scientists are still working on the exact mechanisms. What would appear to happen is that some people knock out the virus right at the start of infection. Vaccinations usually do this. However, in some cases, the infection continues and the body tries to rid itself of the virus by a massive over-reaction. There's a theory that there's a tiny piece of faulty DNA involved for some people. The virus attacks multiple organs, not just lungs, although most people who die suffer from respiratory failure. Blood clots stop oxygen from reaching vital organs, including the lungs.

Some people are at higher risk, but everybody is at some risk.

That is very interesting, @growstuff, and makes a lot of sense. I have an over-active immune system, which destroyed the insulin producing cells in my pancreas many years ago, and gave me a form of ME/CFS after a dose of radiotherapy, so it can do life-changing damage. I haven't had Covid yet, but my daughter had it and has suffered from Long Covid for many months; I wonder if she has inherited my over-enthusiastic immune system!

There is a reason that the Covid virus attacks multiple organs and that is its ability to enter through ACE2 receptors that are part of a multitude of types of cell throughout the body. I just looked for a readable article explaining this, here's a link, this was being widely discussed last year.

theconversation.com/what-is-the-ace2-receptor-how-is-it-connected-to-coronavirus-and-why-might-it-be-key-to-treating-covid-19-the-experts-explain-136928

Bluecat

Jenny Harries, head of the UK's Health Security Agency and Test and Trace, has just given evidence that Omicron is probably the biggest threat to the NHS since the start of the pandemic. It is so contagious that the infection rate is doubling every two days. Even if it isn't as lethal as other forms, the numbers needing hospitalisation could be overwhelming.

Surely people must be starting to realise now that it isn't simply the severity of the disease (most agree that Omicron is less deadly) but the sheer numbers that could be affected. Some could be seriously ill, particularly those who cannot be vaccinated, and there is an increasing chance of worse mutations evolving.
DH and I are triple jabbed, as are most of our neighbours, but we're going to an outdoor social event for an hour at lunchtime and have been asked to take a lateral flow test - which I think is perfectly reasonable.
I had to go on a bus yesterday (in London) and I must admit that I don't think I'll do it again for a while. For the first time everybody was wearing masks. I know people who were unwilling to have the booster, thinking that two jabs were enough for protection. However they have been listening to the news and have sensibly taken the advice to have the booster.

I still haven’t forgiven Harries for trying to blame NHS staff for the shortage of PPE by saying they were misusing them. Having said that, she does seem to have improved with a change of role. And I think a lot of people who were very prominent at the start of the pandemic are beginning to realise that the government plans to use them as scapegoats for its failings.

For OP and all those who accuse anybody of “overreacting “

I suggest you read about the effects on emergency services in London - and it wont just be confined to the capital very soon - and ask yourself whether the U.K. government is not under reacting ?
And hope that you don’t need an ambulance, the fire services or a policeman for a while ??

Bump

I suspect the problem in London will lead to further restrictions next week. I think it’s inevitable. So many people just carrying on as usual means everyone suffers one way or another. I pity the NHS workers having to treat people whose sheer stupidity has put them in hospital.

Johnson is totally incapable of giving the leadership the country needs because he is hamstrung by his opposition on his back benches.

We should be locking down given the dire warnings that we have heard today until Christmas then allow people to have a limited meet up at Christmas, then reassess where the nhs is in the new year.

If we don’t take mitigation the situation will be out of control and the NHS will simply not be able to cope.

Dickens, I'm sick of hearing (again) the 'must learn to live with it' from Yiayia70 - and others. I'd translate it into:

'It's your own hard luck if you're immunosuppressed, frail, elderly or sick - I'm just going to enjoy myself and live my life as I always have, if you're really ill or die, I simply don't care.'

Am I wrong?

I don't think 'allowing' people to have a limited meet up over Christmas is going to be very successful many will carry on regardless
Locking down doesn't really solve the problem but extends it as it doesn't work in the long term so it would have to be very short

It doesn’t stop the spread of the virus indefinitely, it’s just to stop the NHS being overwhelmed. Because people are still going to be having strokes, accidents, heart attacks etc.And we need to protect key workers somehow.

Oh and DrJohn has just pointed out that the NHS still haven’t updated their advice about covid symptoms so a lot of people are going to be going around infecting people thinking that they’ve just got a cold.