Politics of fear and its side effects

Is your DD better now,sass? It must have been very frightening for you and her….

I know how your daughter felt sazz, I could barely stand or walk when I had Covid. When I went to the bathroom in the hospital I had to have a nurse with me as I was so weakened and she/he had to carry a portable oxygen cylinder as I couldn’t go off oxygen at any time. When I came home I was off oxygen but still barely able to walk or go upstairs. Even so, when given the scenario of 6000 deaths in a day as we were last week, and knowing that we never exceeded 2000 during the worst of the pandemic last winter, I’m afraid I do regard it as scaremongering, and if the population don’t believe what they’re told, many will fail to comply.

Most folk watch the soaps on TV.
If the TV soaps reinforced mask wearing and spoke of distancing and we saw distancing in practice, then these ill formed individuals may distance and those who can, would wear masks and result in us being safer.

I dislike the sanctimonious and judgmental attitudes of all those who are at the more cautious end of the opening up process. I have every respect for their views, even though I do not agree with them.

I think they should accord the same respect to those of us who are further down this opening up process, who are not taking risks, who are taking every precaution, but, consider that it is possible to engage with the world more than they do.

M0nica

I dislike the sanctimonious and judgmental attitudes of all those who are at the more cautious end of the opening up process. I have every respect for their views, even though I do not agree with them.

I think they should accord the same respect to those of us who are further down this opening up process, who are not taking risks, who are taking every precaution, but, consider that it is possible to engage with the world more than they do.

Monica I agree with you we are all I hope grown ups and and dealing with this all in the best way possible
I personally do not know anyone who has not tried to carry on with normal life as safely as possible and yes that means eating out going to pubs and meeting friends and family.
If anyone feels they are particularly vulnerable then of course they take actions quite rightly so to protect themselves but the rest of the population is not going to do the same.

I agree with Monica and rosie. It is possible to engage with the world and remain as safe as possible. I have every reason to wish that I won’t become as ill again as I was last January, but I have lived my life as near as possible to normality as I could all through the summer. We were eating out in pubs and restaurants, we went on holiday to Somerset, Greece, and the Isle of Wight. We have always associated with our family since lockdown ended and I see friends from time to time for walks, coffee, lunches. I shop normally but never stopped wearing a mask or sanitising my hands and trolley. We do avoid crowds, although my husband has been working as a volunteer at the vaccination Centre. In the summer I even took my grandson to the cinema a couple of times, but I chose morning, not busy times to go. Since winter arrived and especially Omicron, we have not gone out to eat, and our sons have scaled back on socialising because we were trying to preserve out Christmas celebration at our son’s house, and today, this afternoon at our house. We were nine yesterday and again today. I also want to avoid testing positive because I need to be able to visit my 94 year old mother in her care home. So we do what we can, we avoid what seems more likely to cause infection. Monica and rosie are correct. You assess the risk, take appropriate precautions, and try to get on with your life.

I think that goes both ways though doesnt it, calling people excessively timid etc is hardly kind. I see nothing kind in many of the posts about those who are worried.

M0nica

I dislike the sanctimonious and judgmental attitudes of all those who are at the more cautious end of the opening up process. I have every respect for their views, even though I do not agree with them.

I think they should accord the same respect to those of us who are further down this opening up process, who are not taking risks, who are taking every precaution, but, consider that it is possible to engage with the world more than they do.

Honestly, I thought your opening post was very judgemental.

You were so indignant about what this lady had done to your DH. A long sanctimonious paragraph about how he had done everything right. How she had made him distressed.

You and your DH are over reacting too. Distressed? She did nothing to him. She did not speak to him. She didn’t accost him. She didn’t express an opinion out loud about him. She didn’t try to prevent anyone getting their vaccine.

She didn’t feel safe (and you have no knowledge why) she didn’t say it was because of your DH. He assumed that. She had no contact with him. So she left the queue albeit somewhat noisily.

What on earth was there in her actions for you to rush to social media to judge and condemn her.

Except a sanctimonious and judgmental attitude?

Two of my daughters work in Mental Health, one within the NHS. and the other as an Educational Psychologist with school-aged children. Both have reported on the continuously and extreme rise in serious mental health problems that have come about over the past two years. Both are totally over-stretched now at work, unable to deal with the tsunami of cases.

Both are totally opposed to any form of Lockdowns saying that the that cure is now more dangerous than the disease.

Long, long after the current Pandemic is a thing of the past, our society will still be trying to deal with the fallout of the serious mental health problems it has produced, aided and abetted - even encouraged- by the government and SAGE.

We are still waiting to see our grandsons Maddyone one tested positive last Saturday so waiting for him to become clear
Booked a restaurant for New Year’s Eve but was cancelled last year so waiting to see if Boris does the same this year

I hope you get to see your grandsons soon rosie.

Our family think more restrictions may be brought in next week, so it’s watch this space. It’s a very difficult situation for the government, because restrictions wrecks businesses. So long as the numbers in hospital can be coped with the balance is probably on the economy. But who knows, I haven’t got a crystal ball.

We’re planning a quiet new year, hopefully we’ll be able to see mother in the care home, and our sons and families, and we’ll zoom call our daughter in New Zealand.

Franbern

Two of my daughters work in Mental Health, one within the NHS. and the other as an Educational Psychologist with school-aged children. Both have reported on the continuously and extreme rise in serious mental health problems that have come about over the past two years. Both are totally over-stretched now at work, unable to deal with the tsunami of cases.

Both are totally opposed to any form of Lockdowns saying that the that cure is now more dangerous than the disease.

Long, long after the current Pandemic is a thing of the past, our society will still be trying to deal with the fallout of the serious mental health problems it has produced, aided and abetted - even encouraged- by the government and SAGE.

Death and bereavement cause a multitude of mental health problems too.

It’s reasonable to assume there would have been a rise in mental health problems as a result of the pandemic, whether we had locked down or not, don’t you think?

What a distressing incident M0nica but while we can feel every sympathy, we cannot legislate for those with extreme MH or emotional issues.
Covid has surely highlighted and aggravated many MH problems but I am not prepared to attribute blame to any government agency or the media for how some people react to stress in trying times.

I think we have to discriminate between the different variants rather than just talk about COVID-19. On the evidence to date, in South Africa and the UK, Omicron does not have the same impact on as many people as earlier variants. We are also better protected now. If this remains the case, I think we have to get back to a more normal state of affairs. It is important for people's wellbeing and very important for the economy. Otherwise, our stop-start economy, already into over-borrowing and stagflation, could deteriorate further. Ultimately, it is economic activity that pays the piper for us all.

It was mentioned earlier that scenarios and forecast are not meant to be taken as gospel. Sadly, too often they are and reported as such without any reference to the level of confidence in the conclusions. Experts speak lucidly and knowledgeably about the subject, where we have been and we we are but when it comes to foretelling the future, we have to retain a degree of scepticism. They may be right, especially if the future is similar to the past, but often enough, they are not.

Thank you Maddyone we will do soon hopefully Tuesday. I hope you get to see your mum and family that are possible at the moment. Zoom has be a lifesaver over this time for many.

I think this might be a good place to put this, an explanation of modelling.

The whole article is worth reading.

Scientific models are not set in stone; they are open for inspection, updated with new information and, as errors are discovered, they are corrected. To date, the actual outcomes have been within the range of scenarios. For example, in the autumn, Scotland mandated mask-wearing with exceptions that some ignored, while England made masks voluntary but many wore masks anyway. What actually mattered to case numbers is what people did, not the legislation; no model can capture this perfectly.

www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/dec/26/tensions-are-rising-about-pandemic-modelling-but-we-gloomsters-are-saving-lives

Well seems death rate will soon fall below 100 a day average.
The rates for the last week are: 92, 94, 103, 72, 80 and 26. Whatever yesterday is, I bet the average 7 days is below 100.

Jenny Harries and Neil Ferguson promote continuously the worst case scenarios! Beggars belief why we listen to them as they are always wide of the mark, scaring us half to death.

I think we are constantly presented with the worst case scenario.
Whenever the outlook seems a bit positive we're told it's too soon to tell.?
- We're constantly told that 'true' numbers of cases are 000s more than officially reported, but these extra 000s are never taken into account when hospitalisation numbers are percentaged to numbers or infection.?
- All this testing serves mainly to put ££ millions into the pockets of the manufactures (cynical, moi?).
- The numbers self-isolating seem way out of proportion to the severity of the illness, and it is these numbers that are causing the staff shortages yet this is glossed over.??‍♀️
- Last year's Nightingale hospitals, built at top speed and scarcely used because no staff, are now decommissioned. This year army field hospitals are to be set up. Do they think we've forgotten?

The poor woman in the car park in the OP is an extreme case, but not surprising.

Peasblossom

Franbern

Two of my daughters work in Mental Health, one within the NHS. and the other as an Educational Psychologist with school-aged children. Both have reported on the continuously and extreme rise in serious mental health problems that have come about over the past two years. Both are totally over-stretched now at work, unable to deal with the tsunami of cases.

Both are totally opposed to any form of Lockdowns saying that the that cure is now more dangerous than the disease.

Long, long after the current Pandemic is a thing of the past, our society will still be trying to deal with the fallout of the serious mental health problems it has produced, aided and abetted - even encouraged- by the government and SAGE.

Death and bereavement cause a multitude of mental health problems too.

It’s reasonable to assume there would have been a rise in mental health problems as a result of the pandemic, whether we had locked down or not, don’t you think?

Hmm, ..... Think that death has always been with us. Not a new thing. Even in our modern, first country world, deaths from pneumonia and flu cause sad family deaths every year let alone from the diseases like cancer, cardiac, etc. etc,

There is little doubt that many if not most of the mental health problems now are as a result of very deliberate scare-mongering.

Last year, I saw a neighbour carefully spraying all round the outside of her garage door!!!! People washed their food shopping in bleach!!!! Washed down and disinfected their garden gates, My son an d DiL (she is one of the very panicky), last summer carefully put on their masks when walking through the local park with no-one else there but us!!!
Parents refusing to send their children to school and, to me even more frightening, a very large number of children being scared to go to school.

The reason that there is real pressure on the NHS at present is not because of the number of patients, but due to the fact that so many staff are having not to go to work as they are having to isolate.

Three of my g.children (all year 7 in different parts of the country), are recovered from covid - no idea which variant. Obviously due to their age, all three unvaccinated. Not only have none of them been actually ill, just slightly grotty and unwell, but none of the adults or siblings they live with have (all vaccinated - including one father who is EV), have caught it.
The worst that has happened to them is that one has lost his sense of taste, which he finds most annoying over christmas!!! The shingles that one of them got made them far more unwell.

I do wish they would stop putting out number of positive tests. Cannot see any point to these. First of all, how many of them are for the same people testing themselves each day?. As far as I am concerned the only number that matters are how many people are needing to go into hospital due to covid symptons. And as for that figure of deaths within 28 days of a positive test ..........Okay, great for showing how many people died WITH Covid (maybe), but NOT how many deaths FROM covid.

Well, I fall into the category if people that have been uber careful since the start of the pandemic and am still being so and I have to say it’s quite upsetting to be described as sanctimonious and judgemental.

Cause of death?

My sister caught Covid. Her heart valves were damaged. She was operated on some months later to replace the valves. She died less than 24 hours later.

Cause of death was not registered as Covid.

But it was.

I’m sorry Peasblossom, but your sister didn’t die of Covid, she died from heart surgery. When thousands of obese people die from a stroke or heart event, it doesn’t say obesity on the death certificate, it says heart attack or stroke. Obesity causes those problems to arise, Covid causes certain conditions to arise ( I still have scarring on my lungs from the Covid pneumonia I had) but the resulting conditions were the cause of death, not Covid. I understand why you feel it was Covid, but it wasn’t.

But she wouldn’t have needed the heart surgery if Covid hadn’t destroyed her heart valves.

She’d still be here.

I think many people may have died as a direct or indirect consequence of Covid, outside the specified 28 days.
That includes people who could not get a GP appointment, even a phone appointment, therefore could not get the medication they needed to treat an infection and died.

They'd still be here if it had not been for Covid.

My point is that for ever person who died with Covid, who Franbern thinks shouldn’t be included in statistics there may be an equal number who died with another cause on the the certificate, who would still be alive if they had not contracted Covid.

There has to be criteria for statistics. 28 days of death has been chosen. If one lobby can change the criteria to get the result that supports their point of view, then those with a different view can also change them.

It’s just manipulating things to prove your own point.