Statement from the BMA on lifting Covid restrictions

It’s not about the economy. It’s Johnson trying to save himself

Quite! Boris is looking for the anti maskers/anti vaxxers to support him. He’s on a ticket to nowhere and he knows it!

My daughter is a frontline nurse and she is exhausted!

Gaun yersel' Alegrias!

Before you give yourself a banging headache Alegiras ...
?????

Right, one more post then I'm off to bang my head against the wall because that's more profitable.

There's lots of impressive people in the BMA. The purpose of the BMA is to advance the lot of their members. The BMA obviously doesn't want the NHS to be in a worse state than it is now because that's not good for its members. Incidentally, its also not good for the populace at large.

The BMA, embodied by the no-doubt-estimable Dr Nagpaul, have made a statement about their position on removing restrictions in England. In that statement, Dr Nagpaul uses statistics selectively to make his case more imperative. Not more true, just more scary. I am going to hazard a guess that as a Union, the BMA do not have a great deal of expertise in the modelling of pandemics. Perhaps some of their members do, but its not their individual members speaking, its the corporate body that is the union.

The BMA has no more knowledge than you or me about what will happen when the restrictions are lifted. Please read that sentence again, because that is the nub of the discussion. I would expect them to say we need to be careful about lifting them but I am disappointed that they think it is acceptable to present statistics in a misleading way to support their position.

The have been very wrong in the last year about at least 2 issues - the 12 week gap and Freedom Day.

So of course they are going to make their opinion known. Of course they should do that. But it doesn't mean that it is the opinion of the Public Health authorities and I can find no instances of SAGE tweeting their support, although I am happy to read anything that anybody else links to.

Yes, you can clearly see the 'News and Opinion' section on the tool bar. And you can clearly see who the Leaders are and what their qualifications are (an impressive bunch no?)

Here's a clue.

www.bma.org.uk/

Kali2

Wow Alegrias 'The BMA. The doctor's Union. Not a learned body.'

how many years does it take to become even a Junior Doctor, and a member of the BMA.

They have an 'agenda' umg- please please do tell. What is it?

I would like to know what the BMA's agenda is as well please? Then I can check in a copy.
If you want to check out the American view of things try the Johns Hopkins site.
It is any Unions job to look after their employees but they also know what those employees working conditions are like and what they are predicting for the future months. What Dr's predict affects us all.

For a couple of weeks this month officials from a Health Board near me have been appearing on TV to tell us that they’ll probably have to call a Major Incident.

We’re going to call a Major Incident. We’re going to call a Major Incident. WE’RE GOING TO CALL A MAJOR INCIDENT.

Oh, no, scrub that. No major incident required.

So what was the point of that? What could those people watching the news do about it? Avoid going to hospital? Stay home with the covers pulled over their heads just in case? There was no value whatsoever in Health Board officials telling us that they were going to do something drastic, and then telling us that they didn’t have to do it after all. No value, that is, except to demonstrate how hard things are.
Well it’s obvious how hard things are and how the NHS is over stretched. The statistics on waiting times and so on tell us that. But it is counterproductive to keep telling us the sky is falling and then telling us, oh no, actually, its not. That is crying wolf. There is only so often that the public can be told that things are bad and then be told, oh no, actually they're not. At some point, the public are going to say they've heard it all before and not take on the information.

My local Health Board tweets when they are busy at A&E and tells people what alternatives they can use for the time being – i.e. for the next few hours. That’s practical information we can do something with. But officials running around with their hands in the air telling us we’re all doomed isn’t actually helping anything.

So I get a bit offended when you tell me LadyWee, that I don’t appreciate the NHS and its because of people like me that the staff are leaving and that its going to collapse. Collapse is a big word. If we stopped bandying it around when we actually mean something else, that would be a start.

Good post at 8:12 M0nica. Very good.

I am not anti-doctor, but neither do I see them as knights in shining armour who can do no wrong. They are ordinary people with all the faults and foibles that people have.

Some of them are good doctors, some are mediocre and some are downright bad. They also hold the same political views as other people from extreme right to extreme left and have strong views on a range of other subjects. All of which will influence their attitudes and approach to a whole range of subjects.

And as everyone says, the BMA is a union and unions are driven by primarily by their members interests and their politics. And the question in this case must be, is this a political decision hidden behind medical respectability or a purely medical decision - and the BMA is a union.

Do not get me wrong, I am not anti-union. I still belong to the one I belonged to at work, as a retired member. But you need to be clear eyed about what the motivations are behind any decision and the purpose of the organisation that makes it.

Alegrias1

You're making a lot of assumptions LadyWee and attributing attitudes to me based on what you think I must be thinking/feeling.

Plus ça change with the medical establishment.

Just commenting on the way your posts read to me. Will very happily stand corrected if they have been misinterpreted. Often the way with written communication.

Not quite sure I follow your medical establishment comment?

Just one more post from me. The comments came from Channd Nagpaul the BMA chair - a highly respected long serving CBE awarded GP. See his wiki page for more info

His response has been publicly supported by SAGE contributors and re tweeted.

And now to bed!

Just because I thought the staff were calm, kind and did not rush us as if they were pressurised does not mean I do not appreciate how hard they work and that I do not appreciate them.

DH has been seen promptly at an outpatient clinic. Hardly anyone there, more staff than patients..

I saw another consultant too although the waiting list was longer because of Covid and there were quite a lot of people in the waiting room. I know they are catching up and working some evenings too. I've done that myself when work needed to be got out and it's not sustainable in the long-term but, on the whole, many outpatient clinics have been quieter during the past two years, as have other scheduled procedures.

You're making a lot of assumptions LadyWee and attributing attitudes to me based on what you think I must be thinking/feeling.

Plus ça change with the medical establishment.

Ah apologies I mixed up the posts - thought your father was the emergency case. Would need to look at referral to routine surgery times for a cataract case including postponements and cancellations in that particular area to understand fully.

That said it still doesn’t negate the fact that you are quoting your own experience as representative of the nation without addressing the factual evidence.

I found your last post offensive and flippant to be honest. As I said what more would you like to see to demonstrate a collapsing system? You appear to want the services from the NHS without any appreciation for the people who provide them.if you honestly believe the stats demonstrate crying wolf and the professionals working in these circumstances ‘crying wolf’ for trying to highlight that it feels like there is a complete lack of respect for everything they have been through.

So, I bow out now. I really don’t think I know everything but I have had a very long career in the NHS and have many friends, colleagues and family members still working within it, so I do feel that gives me some understanding of what is happening on the ground. Sadly the attitude towards medical professionals that you infer with the attitude of your posts is just one of the reasons they are leaving to work elsewhere.

Your father was clearly an emergency and will always be prioritised

Nope. Cataracts.

Maybe you're not as omniscient as you think.

Pressure isn't collapse. Maybe we should have a chat about crying wolf.

I ain't no lady.

www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/pressure-points-in-the-nhs

You won’t like it as it’s the BMA but evidence re pressures within the NHS ans want guides the doctors decisions

Your father was clearly an emergency and will
Always be prioritised

I suspect other union officials from other unions wouldn't take too kindly to being thought of as pen pushers and administrators. I might be tempted to talk about medics and their exceptionalism, but I'd no doubt get some stick for that.

Following many of the SAGE experts on Twitter and they also are in agreement.

I just don’t get the logic that the body representing doctors and their working conditions wouldn’t be able to give an opinion on whether restrictions directly relating to their working conditions should be lifted or not.. but it’s your opinion as as you are not an expert either perhaps you shouldn’t be entitled to give it eh?

Anecdotal evidence as you keep giving is just that - anecdotal. As someone who knows their numbers one would assume you would know this?!

What would it take in your eyes for collapse of NHS? Increasing waiting times, multiple trusts declaring black alerts and even opal alerts ( not a single bed spare), workplace shortages, reliance on retired staff to come back, ambulance queues at ED, more staff leaving, people calling 999 and being told to make their own way to ED for absolutely appropriate ambulance situations, routine work being cancelled in primary care and pathology to allow for vaccinations and processing of Covid tests - that’s not enough right so what would you like to see?

Anyway, the BMA have given their opinion on the matter. As have many doctors. And it is in the public domain for others to see and decide for themselves. The opinion of the likes on some ladies on gransnet is unlikely to change their stance so we don’t really need to argue whether they should or should not have an opinion!

''However. They, the Union, do not have the expertise to say whether lifting restrictions will help or hinder the progression of the pandemic.''

yes, they do. Because they are not a 'Union' led by pen pushers and administrators, but all highly qualified and experienced doctors, with massive experience in a great variety of fields and specialities- and with regular discussions and debates with their members, all of whom are (see above)...

They certainly know better than Johnson, Javid and co- or the average GN poster (including me, which is why I tend to trust them and listen to what they have to say).

Alegrias1

^Define NHS hasn’t collapsed? Interesting! Many on the frontline would disagree…^

You don't say? The hospital I attended with my elderly father this week didn't appear to have collapsed. Maybe we were just lucky.

And I too have been whisked in and out very quickly at various clinics recently, I’ve been to four different hospitals and was very impressed with the lack of waiting time and calm atmosphere. It was only in A&E that there were other people around but even so, my Mum was seen and admitted to a ward within two hours. I think some of the social distancing roles around limiting the number of people accompanying patients and spreading appointments out instead of block booking have helped and I hope this method of working continues post pandemic.

Alegrias1

^Define NHS hasn’t collapsed? Interesting! Many on the frontline would disagree…^

You don't say? The hospital I attended with my elderly father this week didn't appear to have collapsed. Maybe we were just lucky.

Not just you Alegrias1 GC was seen in A &
E , operated on and home within 12 hours.

Define NHS hasn’t collapsed? Interesting! Many on the frontline would disagree…

You don't say? The hospital I attended with my elderly father this week didn't appear to have collapsed. Maybe we were just lucky.