The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

We could substitute Muslim for Jew in theis famous speech

^I am a Jew. Hath
not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as
a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison
us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not
revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will
resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian,
what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian
wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by
Christian example? Why, revenge.^

I lived opposite a Muslim family for many years. It was traditional as all the generations lived in one home (it was actually two semis adapted to one unit.) Some of the women wore hijabs, some wore western dress, occasionally they had visitors wearing niqabs. In my house some of the women(me and my daughters) always wore trousers, some wore full make up and others did not, some wore short skirts and tight tops. The women were educated and all worked in professional jobs. They liked a laugh and a joke, they were just like us! We were friends.

I am not sure if the women wore hijabs/niqabs /make up/ trousers/ short skirts etc purely knew if they were wearing them to please themselves, express their culture or to please men.

that might be a compromise for the nurses..wear a medical mask..could be regularly changed to reduce issues re contamination etc.

Stansgran I'm very surprised at your friend's story of her experience with the niqab.

In Saudi Western women are not required to cover their faces, or hair. You always carried a scarf with you in case you needed it - in 6 months I wore a scarf only once.

In my experience, in Riyadh, an extremely conservative city compared to Jeddah, non-Muslim nurses wore scrubs, no hijab and certainly no niqab.

Female managers, IT staff, etc., wore trousers with a lab coat, again no head or face covering if they were Western.

I can't imagine how your friend working as a secretary ended up in a niqab!

If a woman chooses to wear a niqab....not forced, not because it's expected but because she has made a conscious, considered decision to wear one as an aspect and sign of her faith...would we not be oppressing her by denying her the right to do so?

Indeed V'queen! I will make informed choices as to what I choose to wear. For years I did not wear a skirt or make up..it was against 'feminism'. Then I thought further and decided that I was being as oppressed by militant feminism as I was by male chauvinism. I felt that feminism should mean people were free to make choices based on information and free will, about what people wanted to wear, how they live their lives(e.g.working /unwaged parent) etc.

I agree that being made to wear anything either forcibly or by heavy society /community pressure is not right. Informed decisions and choice is the way to go.

When I see some young people, usually girls, dressed in outfits specifically to emphasise their sexual attractiveness/avaiability I wonder how much of that is truly through informed freedom of choice.

Off subject a bit, I know, but a teacher (I think) was talking about female mutilation on the radio today. He summed it all up in one phrase:
Culture doesn't travel. That said it all, for me.

Notting Hill Carnival? Curry? Music?

Some culture certainly does travel.

However physical abuse is wrong anywhere.

Culture travels and is assimilated and learned from.

Greek culture was assimilated by the Romans who then spread their version of civilisation across the then known world.

Many words in the English language have come to us courtesy of the Vikings, the Angles and Saxons and the Norman French who came here with their languages and cultures.

And lets not forget the Scottish, Irish and Welsh input from more recent generation.

We eat foods that were not native to England such as rabbit. Then of course there are the myriad of 'foreign' foods like curry, tapas, pizza and pasta.

We listen to music from around the world. Where would we be without jazz, blues and reggae? I love the sound of a digeridoo (although I admit it's not to everyone's taste).

Even Christianity is derived from a 2000 year old middle eastern offshoot of Judaism.

FGM is a different matter altogether but again we need to educate as well as campaign against it.

People should wear whatever they want to wear. It should not be dictated by religion, culture, misogyny, western prejudices and fear, ideas of decency and taste, etc.
What gives anyone the right to say what is acceptable and what is not?

How did that happen?

I previewed my post. Corrected the typos and deleted the last sentence...and hit post. No reason for my preview to be posted?????

I have very, very rarely seen any Muslim woman in this country wearing the Niqab and I don't think I've ever seen a Burka!
Whenever I've seen the Niqab I've assumed they are visitors to the UK.
The Hijab is a different matter. As others have said, Hijab means 'modesty' and applies to Muslim men as well as women. Hijab for women means covering the hair and the chest It does NOT mean covering the face.
I have seen a couple of TV reports with Hijabi medical practitioners covering their mouths and noses with one side of their head scarf whilst talking to reporters, but in the normal course of a day this is not the norm.
I have lived in the Middle East and the interpretation of Hijab runs the whole gamut from Niqab to spray on jeans and skimpy tops!! (Well, maybe the latter is not an interpretation of Hijab in any way a Muslim cleric would endorse, but the women considered themselves to be good Muslims!!)
Contrary to popular mis-conception, in Saudi Arabia non-Muslim women are NOT expected to cover up, but the Muttawah (religious police) can take exception to almost anything! More than once I was rapped on the ankles for wearing an 'indecent' long skirt with a loose long-sleeved shirt over a T-shirt and a broad-brimmed hat! That's just the Muttawah though, not the official policy.
Before railing against the wearing of Niqabs and Burkas, please make sure you know what is what:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=burqa+niqab+hijab&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=bdU8UqBvq5jRBZ2ZgbAG&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1253&bih=620&dpr=1

You would see many women wearing a niqab in an area of the city near to me NannaAnna, and even more in a neighbouring city. They are not visitors to the country and I don't believe they are all wearing it of their own free will.

I hate the sight of these garments and what they stand for. I can't agree that it is right for any woman to freely embrace a garment that is a symbol of misogyny and oppression, and one that other women are forced to wear.

Same here in my part of the country night owl. The number of women who we are a full veil, burkha etc is increasing.

The point made by penstomon about the pressure within the women's movement in the 70's to avoid makeup and bras extended to relationships with men, and 'serious' debates about the age at which boy children should be excluded from wimin's meetings. I The experience of being expected to conform to norms that I wasn't comfortable with was unpleasant. Eventually, I took myself off to a less oppressive group. How much harder is it for women within communities that are already somewhat marginalised, to make genuine, informed choices. I do not mean to patronise or offend muslim women in the midst of this argument but I'm relieved it's taking place in a more open, and less offensive manner than could have been the case.

Nightowl.....what evidence do you have for your belief that some of the women are not wearing the niqab of their own free will.

I asked in an earlier post for evidence that women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab. No one pointed me towards any so I'm led to assume that the evidence doesn't exist and people are against the niqab due to a personal dislike rather than wishing to free women from oppression.

The propaganda that veil-wearing women are subjected to is oppressive. A norm has been set and positively re-framed so they would be seen as awkward not to go along with it. My Muslim friend wears a scarf, has done since starting at high school. She whips it off as she gets through the front door, as she says it annoys her, but she can't be bothered changing now as she would have to explain herself too many times. She says that many veil-wearing women continue to do so for the same reason - choosing to be different sets them apart and they don't want the hassle.

Was not the niqab once known as the yasmak. To me and surely here in the western world covering your face or wearing a mask outside of a medical proceedure means you are about to commit a crimal act and just don't want to be recognised and therefore caught and punished. You can't to import a foriegn culture and expect immediate acceptance by the indigience population. The old adage is still relevant 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' or put it another way blend in, don't make youself unnecessarily conspicuous.

vampire queen I think it would be extremely naive of me to think all of these women are wearing the niqab (and occasionally a burqa) of their own free will, without pressure from their religious teachings, cultural norms, and community and religious leaders. There has been a huge ncrease in the numbers of women wearing a niqab and in the areas I know it is my belief that these are largely women who have recently arrived in the uk and may have come from countries where women have no choice other than to wear the niqab (or burqa). This is an example of what i am talking about

www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/burqa-refusal-led-to-death-threats-1.1402262#.Uj1lqGS9LTo

My evidence comes from 30+ years of working with people from all sections of society in inner city areas. I am not claiming to have a complete knowledge of how such women feel but I can claim to have a familiarity with how the communities operate and how many women have extremely limited choices.

thatbags has posted a link above about children as young as 11 being forced to wear the niqab in Muslim schools. Here is another link about the experiences of female teachers and female children in a Muslim school very close to me

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426626/Female-teachers-Islamic-school-sign-contract-agreeing-wear-headscarf-theyre-NOT-Muslim.html

These are examples of what is happening in this country. We cannot bury our heads in the sand and say that all Muslim women have free choices about whether to wear the burqa or niqab even here. Many young, intelligent, free thinking Muslim women do, but how many more are there who have a very different experience.

If you work in a faith school you have to be sympathetic to certain beliefs even if you don't actually believe in them. A Catholic school requires teachers to attend and participate in prayers and mass. It's brought up at interview that you will be expected to support the faith and follow Church teachings and traditions.

If you work in a 'born again' school you have to teach Creationism if it's on the curriculum and ignore evolution. Some 'born again' schools don't even use the National Curriculum but use the fundamentalist Accelerated Christian Education system http://www.christian-education.org/

As with all faith schools if you feel you can't accept the extra requirements that go with teaching in them then don't work there.

By the way the NUT is anti all faith schools so I tend to take what they say with a pinch of salt.

Has anyone seen or heard anything said/written by the teachers themselves rather than the views of outsiders?

Couldn't be bothered reading the vast majority of what has been posted,so forgive me if what I say has already been written.
It's nothing to do with religion it's a cultural thing, and a snub to us mainly by a younger militant, group who are testing us and finding out if the bulldog has got any teeth remaining. They are supported by the "do gooders"who feel so magnanimous sticking up for all in sundry,agreeing with any action they take, claiming it is their right. What we really need is a "magnanimous" dictator who will rid us of the things that are not of our culture. ( Don't tell me we are multicultural, we have pockets of alien culture ) Just wondered if I could post this without swearing, Thus creating a furore like what happened on another post.
Did read one of the first, about the women walking behind their husbands, all that changed when land mines proliferated, they now walk in front.Thought that was good too,"We cannot bury our heads in the sand...."another good, if dangerous way of concealing your identity.

deserving I'm sure they are vital garb when the sandstorms hit Tower Hamlets. Make allowances

To compare, as the lawyer did, the outfits worn by the Ku Klux Klan with that of the niqab is, I think, ridiculous. The purpose of the KKK's "uniform" was to conceal their identity since they carried out terrorist acts against black people and their supporters. People wearing motorcycle helments do so for a specific purpose, and to wear a cycle helmet when one is not on a motorcycle is not required by law, or resulting from a cultural norm or religious belief.

Before anyone states that the koran does not require the form of dress adopted by these women, all religions are open to interpretation. Most christian people are willing to undergo a blood transfusion but jehovah's witnesses interpret the bible in such a way that they are not. The church of England and catholic church have difficulties with women holding certain positions within the church. Some jewish people have a very strict interpretation of their scriptures and dress and behave very differently from other jewish people. What the majority have in common is their unwillingness to treat women as equals.

It appears that a great deal of the comments in favour of criminalising the wearing of a niqab arise because of the posters' own feelings about it, rather than as a genuine concern for the women who wear them. These women are, supposedly, responsible for making someone else feel "exposed, vulnerable and intimidated", their form of dress equated with "voyeurism", their actions described as "bloody stupid", "bad mannered" "anti social" and as "unsuitable" for the so-called caring professions. In the face of this kind of hostility, is it any wonder that muslim people withdraw even further from a society that treats them with such disdain?

The idea that we should have a "magnanimous dictator who will rid us of the things that are not of our culture" I find truly worrying. Who decides what behaviour is "of our culture" and therefore permissible, and what steps should be taken to "rid" us of such behaviour?

I was born in South Shields, next to the River Tyne, in the 40s and 50s it was a very busy seaport, there was an area there that was called "The Arab Quarter" for no other reason than most of the men were seamen and worked on the docks. I remember being taken there with my dad as a small child, there were many ladies mostly sitting outside the front doors with a different dress code to what I was used to, not one of them wore a burka, just brightly coloured dresses with scarfs on their heads which I thought were lovely. Unbeknown to me as a child because of this area people born in South Shields were nicknamed "The Sand Dancers".
As far as I know the first purpose built Mosque in the UK was built there and opened by Mohammed Ali, Still no burkas.
I went to Tunisia a long time ago on holiday The ladies all wore beautiful kaftans and head scarfs except for a few Bedouin ladies who had just come of the Sahara to do their washing in a river, they wore them to protect themselves from the stinging desert sand. The next time I saw burkas was when a Rolls Royce pulled up outside Harrods, a couple of ladies (i think) got out with their minders to do a spot of shopping. The point I am Trying to make is that this is not a religion thing, its man made by inadequate men

Magnanimous dictators are few and far between, and when they die, their successors are seldom as magnanimous.

Eloethan don't a lot of strict Jewish ladies cover their hair when out by using a wig?