The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

Yes, I've met several jewish women who wear a wig to conceal their own hair. Many cultures and religions seem to have a thing about women's hair.

I'm sticking up for the right of women to wear the niqab. That doesn't make me a do gooder. I will stick up for the right of a woman to wear anything she chooses to wear. It's not a point of making me feel good.

Can someone explain to me what constitutes British culture? That would be wholly British culture of course, not something we have adopted from immigrants and invaders over the centuries so you can't count anything that we have adopted in the 2000 years since we became part of the Roman Empire.

We'd have to change our language too. No Latin, Greek, French, Scandanavian or German influenced words.

Then of course there is our numerical system. That was developed by Muslims and adopted by us so we can't use that.

Religion? Well we can't follow Christianity or any monotheistic faith because that would mean we'd adopted a middle eastern religion.

I ask again....what is British culture? It's spoken about as if it's something set in stone but it can't be as we've been invaded and settled many times.

It is a cultural garment. not a religious one - the cultures that have promoted wearing it opress women - they hung a 15 year old for being raped for goodness sake ! Frankly, if their men cannot be trusted not to molest and attack women that allow their faces to be seen, then perhaps they should have culturally made all men wear chastity devices

I know I will be shouted down ( even though I made the daily mail because I stood up for Muslims against a bigoted Councillor) but I firmly believe if you choose to live in a western christian society, you should dress and respect the culture here, and the weather - we dont need to wear loose fitting baggy clothes ITS FREEZING, please don't expect us to change our laws to accommodate you , its a choice - wear a turban, or die a motorbike with a crash helmet, veil your face and don't expect to work in a person centred environment

If we say we support the
veil , as it s'cultural' perhaps we should support FGM as well? ..........

What would happen if in time, as things evolve, we all ended up wearing burkas? Imagine if you will all High streets, supermarkets, villages and city's How would we identify each other, would we not all become isolated under our sheets

If motorbike rider has to remove his/her visor to enter a public building then it wouldn't seem unreasonable to ask anyone wearing a face covering to do the same thing. Laws should be uniform otherwise people quite rightly perceive them to be unfair.

I wouldn't want to see the French approach whereby a woman could be arrested for walking about the street with a niqab or burka, although I agree with bags' post, I also find them a misogynist monstrosity. I don't think a blanket statement of "someone's right" to do something can be upheld if it presents too great a problem to the rest of society. We know about the criminal who shot the policewoman and fled the country in a burka, that would be one example of why a burka should not be allowed in a public place.

One person's perceived right is another person's infringement of their rights. Some people think it's their right to genitally mutilate their children and some people believe it should be their right to have sex with children. Surely the law is there to protect society from the ghastly practices that some would seek to inflict on others.

susieb It is insulting to imply that those who have a different opinion from your own are in any way in favour of, or colluding with, acts of violence against women and children.

I - and I'm sure other GNrs who have a view different from your own - most certainly do not support FGM (or the forced circumcision of young males), paedophilia or the physical and/or psychological abuse of women and children.

I suppose what concerns me more than the right of women to wear the burqa or niqab if that is their choice, is the question of what we in this country can do to support those women who would choose not to wear it but feel compelled to do so. Any suggestions?

I am an abuse survivor. Can someone please explain the link between what women in the UK choose to wear and sexual, physical and psychological abuse because I can't see it.

Why is choosing to cover your face in public a 'ghastly act'? How does it infringe on someone else's rights? No one on this thread has suggested that a woman should hide her face in official circumstances or where security is concerned but I don't see why she has to show her face to anyone in the street if she chooses not to.

I keep asking for someone to point me in the direction of evidence that proves that some women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab. Up to now no one has offered that evidence. In fact my requests have been ignored. As no one is prepared/able to provide evidence that some women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab I can only assume that they are using this argument to mask (no pun intended) the fact that they want the niqab banned because it offends their personal taste and not the more altruistic act of freeing women from tyranny.

Also could someone please answer my post about British culture?

thatbags' link about 11 year old girls being forced to wear the niqab in school is one piece of evidence that this is not always a free choice vampirequeen

From Counil of ex-Muslims site. 100 reasons why I don't wear a niqab:

www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16771.0;wap2

I read the article, nightowl. I would refer you to my post regarding faith schools and also add that most faith and secular secondary schools have a strict uniform rule. This is just an extension of that. If you don't like the uniform then go to another school.

Even the government back the school uniform rules.

The head teacher can discipline your child for not wearing the school uniform. Your child can only be suspended or expelled if they repeatedly ignore the uniform rules. https://www.gov.uk/school-uniform

I don't like the way schools have brought back the collar, tie and blazer but that's just my personal opinion and I wouldn't expect a school not to be allowed to have them as part of the uniform.

I have no knowledge of any woman being forced to wear the niquab but I do have experience of women, who wear the niquab, whose lives are very much controlled by their husbands. At one time I was a volunteer home tutor for immigrants who spoke little or no English. In some cases, family responsibility prevented a mother from attending a class, but in others, she was prevented from doing so because her husband did not want her mixing with other women from other countries and especially from the UK. It was important that these women could talk to teachers, doctors, shopkeepers, etc. so they were allowed a home tutor. I even took one woman through all the language she would need when giving birth.

I think there is a big difference between enforcing a strict school uniform and requiring a female child to cover herself completely apart from her eyes. What on earth is that saying to the female and male children in that school? The child may not like it but she can hardly decide to change schools. One must assume that her parents accept the requirement and to my mind this is evidence that some girls in this country are subject to oppression and indoctrination from an early age

Don't know how that happened!

I don't understand how they're being oppressed. It's just the uniform. They don't keep their faces covered in the classroom so it's not going to affect their learning. Their parents must agree so we can assume the mother covers her face but we don't know that she doesn't do it out of choice.

What does the current non-Muslim fashion of wearing very short skirts and revealing tops teach female and male children?

Anyone in favour of a woman's right to wear the burka/niqab please confirm whether they would extend this right to public places, if so, should the law be changed to allow motorbike riders the right to wear their visors in a public place, or indeed anyone who wants to wear a mask of any sort?, as surely it would only be fair to accommodate everybody's right to cover their face should this be their preference.

Ex pats who choose to live in a different cultures have to get their head around the fact there are things that they are simply not allowed to do. Such as having a drink, holding hands in public, wearing what they like or practicing their religion. I have read about Catholic Filipinos living in Saudi who covertly held a mass in someone's home and were punished severely. The right to practice one's religion is a basic human right. I think we are all aware of the consequences of breaking some of the morality codes that prevail in the more liberal Dubai and yet we tie ourselves in knots trying to please all of the people all of time. Should a small minority's wishes override the wishes of the majority so these personal freedoms can be granted which are greatly at odds with our society for a multitude of reasons?

I don't agree with the French policy of arresting women for wearing a burka or niqab in the street, but I do think that everyone should be made to uncover their face in a public place for security reasons, this is not unreasonable given the times we are living in.

A vast majority of the general public would not wish to be dealt with by a doctor/nurse/teacher etc. with a face covering. How would their wishes be met? if it was decided that women should be allowed to cover their face at work, particularly if they are dealing with the general public.

I think we should concentrate on areas where women and girls are being beaten or sexually abused and mutilated. And, as I've said before, the circumcision of babies and young boys is also a physical assault which nobody seems too keen to legislate against, or even examine.

Goodness knows, we have a very poor record in preventing, or bringing prosecutions against the perpetrators of FGM (or the rape of women in all communities). Why involve police time in preventing the wearing of an item of clothing which the supposed "victim" may have chosen to wear?

I dont think people should be arrested for wearing it, just don't whine about being asked to remove it so people can see your face - 80% of language is not spoken, or expect to wear it when seeking employment that is person centred - its a choice

Here here Eleothan! Couldn't agree more. The whole country seems to be going mad over this! Why?!!!

It almost starts to smack of racism.

I will say again, although I'm getting bored of repeating myself, I think women should remove the veil in official circumstances such as courts or passport control and in workplaces that require face to face conversations. I don't believe that a woman should be obliged to show her face in the street, shops, on the bus or anywhere else that she doesn't choose to. How does it hurt you if you walk past someone in the street and can't see their face? I have problems with making eye contact. Should I be forced to look straight at people simply because my lack of eye contact makes them feel uncomfortable?

As for Catholics in Saudi surely that's for another thread as we're not discussing Saudi treatment of other faiths but whether women should be allowed to wear the niqab in the UK.

This article actually talks to rather than about niqab wearing women www.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-great-niqab-debate?utm_source=vicetwitter

It would be a very un-British thing to bring in a law about what people should or shouldn't wear and I think it would be about as likely as bringing in a law that says that the Prime Minister should stand at the dispatch box with a bucket on his head. Quite right too (not the bucket).

Individuals may like, dislike or remain indifferent to the niquab, short skirts, onesies, school uniform, bikinis, salwar kameez, saris or Ugg boots. Things and attitudes inevitably change with time.

My point about ex pats living in say Saudi, I was drawing a comparison between living in a place where you would be expected to live by a very strict set of rules and our own country where very few rules apply as far as dress codes are concerned. It doesn't hurt me to see someone's face covered I feel sad for them, at best it looks sinister and in the worst case scenario of the burka it just reduces the wearer to a walking marquee, completely incongruous here, even more so when accompanied by a male wearing very little should the weather be hot.

When I was in Israel I had made a point of covering my legs but inadvertently forgot to cover my lower arms when walking in the Arabic area of Jerusalem, I was asked if I could do this and was only too happy to wear my husband's jacket to comply. It wouldn't have occurred to ask "how are my arms hurting anyone" Different societies have different perceptions of what is acceptable.

when I have only just read your link, and it's excellent. Thank you.

I found quite a few compelling reasons on there that I hadn't thought of.