The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

Britishness will mean different things to different people but I can say what I believe it is not. It is not a country where we stone people, it is not a country where we do not allow women to drive a car, get an education, be executed for having an affair, the list goes on.

We WERE a country where women had succeeded in becoming equal citizens but I despair that Liberal thinking has turned so many of our values upside down.

Surely to goodness not one GN would accept that just because it is another persons 'culture', we must without question, accept that young girls are genitally mutilated, women have an abortion because the unborn infant is a girl, women are the chattel of their husband to be raped and abused sexually and mentally, etc., etc., IN OUR COUNTRY.

Why do I despair? There is nobody with any guts to say NO, NO, NO not in my country. We know girls are being sent for genital mutilation, we know women are having abortions because their unborn is a female, we know girls are being taken abroad for forced marriages, again the list goes on.

We listen to women telling us of their horrendous problems and it is not acceptable to say it is their 'culture' and we should be tolerant of that fact. Women who speak out against the hard-line, masochistic 'culture' they have been born into are brave and I get annoyed that their voices are not heard by some who continue to allow liberal thinking and PC correctness to become the bigger picture and allow 'culture' to be the prominent state of mind.

We too have problems in this country but we do have a judicial system that when these issues arise they are given credence. It is too much of a hot potato for politicians to deal with, it is not PC to talk about religion or another persons 'culture', it is not our business how others live.

Well I despair that it is not a pure and simple rule of law and personal ethics that such things are NOT ACCEPTABLE to any nation irrespective of culture or religion. It is hollow talk when women and children are living such lives to make freedom of speech, cultural differences the God given right to abuse another human being.

If that is what I would like to think being British is, then I will stand by it.

Quote from the homepage of Karma Nirvana'a website:

'If you’re here to tell us that we can please all cultures without causing the slightest bit of offence - well, frankly, you’ve come to the wrong place'

A organisation stated by a Muslim woman, run by Muslim women for Muslim women. Their voices, not mine.

Well said POGS.

This thread is about the niqab not FGM, rape, forced marriage etc. No one is saying they are acceptable. Neither is anyone saying that a woman should be forced to wear the niqab. However I still stand my ground that if a woman chooses to wear a niqab (except in official circumstances which have already been discussed) who are we to stop her. We cannot free one woman from oppression by oppressing another woman.

POGS....You despair of liberal thinking but it was such thinking that gave women equal rights in the first place. Do you really believe you would had equality were it not for liberal thinkers? Was it conservative thinkers who brought in the woman's right to own property, vote or earn equal pay? The very nature of a conservative thinker is to maintain the status quo.

You say, 'There is nobody with any guts to say NO, NO, NO not in my country.' Which version of 'my country' is that....your version, my version or someone else's version.

thatbags.......You say, ' I really can't do those young people justice, but they stressed the multi-faceted aspect of modern Britain and, most of all, tolerance, and fairness and equality before the law.' By banning the niqab the law would not be showing tolerance or fairness to women who choose to wear it. Again I say we cannot free one woman from oppression by oppressing another woman.

It was only in the ninties did it become a crime for a husband to rape his wife in this country.

Is it so much worse to abort a child because of it's sex than to abort a child because it is inconvenient to our career, or is a financial burden

Two women a week are killed in this country by brutal husbands / partners

We do not have forced marriages but the aristocracy and royals have been practising arranged marriages from the year dot.

These are part of British culture yes ?

Correct Anniebach and everything is interlinked. And complicated. I can see both sides of the argument and some very persuasive points put forward from both points of view.

Aka, yes it is all so complicated

Yes everything is interlinked. The niqab/ burqa/ forced marriage/ honour based violence/ FGM etc. All symbols of misogyny and female oppression. No place for that in an equal society.

VQ

You asked 'What is British Culture' and when I had the bottle to answer you, with my opinion, you imply my post was 'moving the thread goal post'. [can't win emoticon]

I have not entered the thread before my post in response to your question but I will now say what I think about wearing the niqab. If a woman wishes to wear it, fine. If a woman is forced to wear it, wrong, wrong, wrong. I do not believe the niqab should be worn by 'patient facing' NHS staff for example. I do not think the niqab should be worn in a Court by a defendant nor witness nor practitioner of the law. I do not think the niqab should be worn in any situation that requires a level of security.

I take your point on the problem we have in this country but we do have a justice system that at least we can turn to, many women don't and I am saddened that is not the main focus on the wearing of the niqab.

Nowhere in text is there a religious requirement for women to cover their face. This is a pre-Islamic practice and is non-Qur'anic and un-Muslim. It is an archaic aristocratic custom originating in ancient Persia. It was later adopted by misogynistic Muslim society. I believe, and I am absolutely sure I will be challenged on this point, it is in fact illegal for women to undertake the pilgrimage to Mecca or to perform their daily prayers whilst wearing the niqab?? So to say it is Muslim 'culture' in my opinion is subject to debate. Many Muslim women challenge the wearing of the niqab I would rather listen to them than either you or I.

I repeat I do not care a hoot if a woman chooses to wear a niqab, I don't care if somebody wishes to wear a mask all day or somebody wishes to wear a stocking over their head all day. I do object though if they believe that it is their right to keep them on under the circumstances I have mentioned previously.

a woman's experience of wearing the niqab

I know quite a lot of people who have a Muslim background, some practice the faith and others, like many nominal Christians, just enjoy the festivals! They, like those from any different cultural background have a wide range of views and opinions and lived varied and different lives. All of these friends would oppose brutality and oppression of women. They know it goes on like I know domestic violence and child abuse is endemic in the UK among all groups.

I find some of the righteous sounding rhetoric from some of those opposing a more 'liberal' view irritating. Liberal minded people do NOT condone brutality or oppression. They do support individual freedom to make informed choices to live life as an individual wishes as long as it does no harm to another person. Most cultures have a long way to go to achieve this, some more than others but nowhere can sit on its laurels!

take 2

Anniebach

It is however a crime in this country for a man to rape his wife and we are able to report it to the authorities. It is still acceptable to some men in what you consider to be their culture.

Abortion is subjective but I stand by my point that aborting a baby just because it is female is wrong.

Yes people are killed every day, every week . The murderer is taken to a court of law, given a trial by jury and sent to a secure place. They are not decapitated or stoned to death.

As for the Royals, I thought that was not worth my thinking about.

So no, I do not think they are British Culture. They are what is wrong with our broken society.

Penstemmon

Righteous sounding rhetoric is a term that I would apply to some posts too. It is subjective to the views you hold, it does not belong to one side of a debate. If debate or listening to other points of view are not the reason to post then using the term can only be to try and belittle a poster who does not agree with you.

You say that you and your friends oppose brutality and oppression. For heavens sake surely we all do. That's the point though isn't it. We all abhor it, we know it goes on but unless we speak out it's the same old, same old.

Society is not broken! That is just political rhetoric.

How do you know we are not opposing it? Western press is not open to many column inches for Muslim groups who do take action. That does not sell papers.

Political rhetoric? I am sorry but I really do not know what to say to that.

I wish I could think of a another term to try and express my thought but it probably would not satisfy so I will stick with it for now.

I think there is more media coverage than just the press these days. The T.V has many good debating programmes, the internet, ability to watch look and listen to overseas news coverage. All of these methods allow us to determine our thoughts, not just newspapers who I agree will show a hand of bias on occasion.

But Pogs, there is no difference between aborting a child because of sex and aborting a child because of a career choice.

Yes it is now a crime for a man to rape his wife but let us not claim any other than the fact it has only been made a crime in the last twenty years,

You don't object to death penalties just the method of carrying it out? Is America so civilised when it is the only country in the west to still have the death penalty .

I don't think there is a British culture set in stone , it changes with each decade

There was a discussion programme on Sunday morning after Andrew Marr's show regarding women who wish to wear the niqab and one of the panelists stated that her reason for doing this was because it helped her worship/honour god, a sort of devotion, probably a bit like nuns. I can't remember exactly what she said, but that was the gist of it.

God is an abstract concept, if there is an all powerful being how could one possibly know that by covering one's head and face you are loving/honouring that god more. I can't help feeling, if you do believe in the almighty, he/she would think it stupid to cover up eyes, ears, nose, hair and face because we have been given these features to function as a human being. Surely therefore this is the individual's interpretation. I could just about go along with the garbing up from head to foot if the men did it as well, but on the contrary the ones I have seen with their veiled women seem positively under dressed.

Growing up a Catholic and looking back on that as an adult, you start to realise just how much of it was made up to suit an agenda and just how much of it is guff. If we are to believe we have been created by a god, is it not possible that being so pleased with his/her creation, we could equally celebrate his/her love and devotion by not covering up very necessary parts of our body. Presumably we were given hair to stop our heads from burning in the sun, so as men are more likely to lose theirs, maybe this is god's way of saying their heads should be covered at some stage!

It's all been said before, religions are patriarchal, the common theme being somehow women should feel ashamed and dirty seemingly because of menstruation and childbirth, then bung into that mix original sin, Eve tempting Adam, (women always viewed as a potential temptress) Best keep them covered whether aged 5 or 105..... just in case!

It's a strange sort of jealousy by the men who perpetuate this concept, possibly because women have the ability to give birth and that's something they can't do!

I can also see both sides of the argument and I can understand why a lot of people feel that the wearing of a niqab - with all its connotations of woman as dangerous temptress - is an affront to women. Despite this, I think the banning of the niqab may have unintended consequences.

Those who are in some way forced to wear the niqab, are already oppressed by families who might actually prefer them not to participate in any way in the wider society. In that case we would be doing the oppressors' job for them - these women could not enter any public building and would be totally isolated.

Those women who wear the niqab by choice (and sometimes against their families' wishes), may see this as a feminist issue, and may stand their ground if they are asked to uncover their faces. This could result in public confrontations, media involvement, and political and religious extremists from both sides of the argument capitalising on the issue to create further disharmony.

Instead of wasting legislative and police time introducing more laws, why not rigorously pursue the laws that we already have regarding FGM, rape, domestic violence, etc., that are occurring every day in this country and which often go unpunished?

As to the sometimes critical tone regarding "liberals" (or "do gooders"), I agree with vampire - it is such people who campaigned against slavery, against homophobia, racism, etc., and for the rights of women.

Anniebach

I'm sorry I did not at any time say I agree with the death penalty?? Why did you say that??

I also said aborting a child was subjective, I did not say it was right for the reasons you mention.!

As for the fact it was only in the last 20 years we made raping a wife illegal, I am sorry I do not see the point you are trying to make.

I am going off line now, grandchild just in from school, catch up later.

I see three categories of women who wear the niqab and burka, those who simply don't have any choice in the matter and I feel deeply sorry for them.

The second category are those who choose to wear them, because they reject certain aspects of our society such as women being objectified, and I have a certain sympathy with that, but covering everything is an extreme measure. I also perceive there is a bit of "this is the side we are on and don't you dare challenge us even though we know the majority of the public don't like face coverings".

Thirdly I think they can be used in a sinister way. Covering the face is menacing, someone mentioned Klu Klux Klan, bandits once covered their faces, robbers still do. It's understandable surely why some members of the public will feel unnerved by face coverings in the current climate. We don't have the full facts of the Nairobi atrocities yet, but one report I read is that men entered the mall dressed as women.

POGS......why did you need the 'bottle to answer' my question? I appreciate you took the time but you can't blame me for disagreeing with you on certain points especially the part played by liberal thinkers in the eventual equality of men and women.

As to the niqab it would appear that we agree. I have said throughout this thread that there are circumstances such as in court, passport control, hospital etc when the niqab is not appropriate. I even spoke of a doctor who was interviewed on the radio saying that she removed her niqab as she entered the hospital but replaced it through her own choice as she left.

I have also posted regarding dress instructions in the Qu'ran and other religious texts. I am well aware that the niqab is a result of tradition and not holy teaching but it is felt to be important by many people so cannot be dismissed out of hand. You say that 'Many Muslim women challenge the wearing of the niqab' which is quite true but equally many Muslim women champion the wearing of the niqab.

My view has always been that no one should be forced to wear the niqab but equally no one (apart from the aforementioned circumstances) should be prevented from wearing it.

AKA....whilst the article you link to is informative it tells us about being a woman in Saudi rather than in the UK. As we can only legislate for the UK, such articles, whilst interesting, should have no effect on UK law.

I think there is a fourth category, BAnanas. Women who wear the niqab out of choice because they feel it is an appropriate way to dress and a genuine expression of their faith.

VQ, there in lies the conundrum, we are told daily by the majority of muslims, that wearing the veil is not a requirement of their religion, merely to dress modestly. I don't see how covering a face in public could be considered appropriate anymore than an eccentric rambler I have read about who thinks it should be his right to pursue his chosen activity naked.

The trouble is with religions per se, a lot of beliefs are illogical and don't have any real basis, resulting in their adherents and their defenders tying themselves in knots trying to justify what is in essence nonsense.