The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

I take your point BAnanas but this thread was about the UK. What happens in other countries is down to them. We are a country that prides itself on our freedom to choose what to wear, say and think. If we start to limit that freedom by banning the niqab (other than in certain circumstances) we damage ourselves as well as the women concerned.

The problem is that even in the uk where we take our freedoms for granted there are groups in society that do not enjoy those freedoms. How can we possibly know that all women who wear the niqab, or even the hijab, are doing so of their own free will when we know of the pressures they are subject to within their own communities? I have worked with very young girls who as in fear of their lives from so called honour killings; I have taken a new born baby into care at the request of his 15 year old mother and her mother, both of whom were terrified of anyone in their community finding out about his existence. It spoke volumes that the girl had lived a completely sheltered (imprisoned) life and neither she nor her mother would say who was the father of the baby. Their terror in the delivery room was palpable. I drew my own conclusions but was powerless to help them. These are only two examples of situations I have dealt with in my career and this is why I feel so str

Sorry cut myself off there. Anyway, suffice it to say that these things are happening in this country and that is why I feel more need to look for ways to support these girls and women than their more liberated sisters who choose to wear the niqab.

One more point - we will not hear women who are subjugated speaking out about their experiences, for obvious reasons. At least not until after they have escaped their circumstances. An excellent source to hear their voices is the website of Karma Nirvana, a wonderful organisation which was founded by an inspirational woman. I am proud that this started in my local area (though I have nothing to be proud of; I can't claim any credit).

I was walking round Ikea a few years ago and a man was wandering round with several women a few steps behind him wearing the niqab. What struck me was that [Ikea being a rather crowded place where it's difficult not to almost bump into people] whenever we were in the same area I was aware that he expected me to give way to him. I don't think I imagined it, especially as it happened ages ago and has stuck in my mind [and bothered me] ever since.

vampirequeen - i feel your question about why some of us are concerned that not all women who chose to cover themselves totally are doing so without pressure to confirm has been answered a number of times. (posts, including mine, about the pressure on feminists in the 70's to conform to oppressive beliefs practiced by a small number, with a big voice)

With regard to your question about the possible links between the expectation that women/girls will cover their hair/bodies/faces and sexual, emotional or physical abuse of women. It's my believe that in any community where women and children are subjugated, abuse is more likely. In any society, it is very difficult for children to talk about abuse, and where women are also excluded from any power or life outside the family, it seems to be it's much less likely that children will be able to approach their mothers, family friends, teachers, or other possibly supportive adults for help. Domestic abuse is also more likely to be hidden in some communities, or accepted as normal.
I don't intend to appear either racist, anti male or inflammatory and I appreciate Vampire's comments about a woman's right to chose what she wears. But - it's all about the extent of choice. That applies equally to young men and women from the indigenous british population, who tend to wear too few clothes in the summer and the winter, drink too much and fight when under the influence. That's a whole other topic, but I don't feel these undoubted problems mean that we're excluded from discussing any of these taxing problems that face us all

Two wrongs don't make a right. If we ban the wearing of the niqab then we might free those who are wearing against their will but we then oppress those who wish to wear it.

I don't have the wisdom of Solomon so I don't know the answer just stating an awkward fact.

There is the other view of course that the wearing of the niqab allows the woman to be judged on what she does rather than what she looks like......just throwing this one in

Tegan Did you give way to him?

I wonder why men dont wear the niqab!

Their cigarettes would set them on fire.

I don't think so Nfk, although I am someone that tends to give way to people anyway [eg if someone walks into me I'm the one who apologises and I give way to so many cars when I'm driving it's a wonder I ever get anywhere].

Nfk

I needed to lighten up a bit, if you'll pardon the pun.

Liberal defenders of the veil have lost their way, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

Excellent article. She is a brave woman.

She just says it all

We should all be supporting her - she will come under a lot of pressure for this article which is spot on.

Why do we demand everyone conforms to our culture ? We certaintly haven't a good track record of confirming to the cultures of other countries where we choose to live/work .

What of women of the Jewish faith? I am speaking of the more authordox Jew, they do not sit with the men when at the synagogues, do not switch on the tv/radio or answer the telephone or cook on their Sabbath. Are these women being denied these freedoms to do as they wish or are they doing what they wish?

as for a fifteen year old being feared of her family finding out she had given birth, only as far back as the sixties we were sending young girls to 'stay with aunts' for six months , not fear of the males in the family, fear of the neighbours gossip and our standing at the WI, Golf Club etc.

I think many Muslim women are now choosing to wear the niqab as an external display of ' I am a Muslim' and not from fear or oppression.

And I too ask, just what is British culture?

Can someone answer the 'What is British culture?' question. I've asked several times and now Anniebach has.

Some excellent debaters, third and fourth years from Glasgow High School, did at our district Rotary conference last weekend. Defining "Britishness", they were bloody brilliant!

All this anti-Muslim/niqab hysteria has reminded me of an Irish comedian on Radio 4 some months back who said something like ....

'I love Muslims me, they've taken the heat off the Irish - we are now those little friendly green people who do Riverdance and make Guinness'.

So what did they say? How did they define Britishness?

Nice comment, riverwalk. He's so right.

I like that riverwalk,

Anniebach in response to your comment about a 15 year old's fear of her family finding out she had given birth, which in turn was a response to an earlier post of mine, I would like to make the following comments.

I agree that it was not very long ago that white british girls were sent away so that these things would be kept secret. As you say, the fear in that case was not of the males in the family but of the family losing social standing. Of course that was wrong and thankfully we have moved on. But I doubt that even those girls feared for their lives.The fear in this case was of a very different order. Do you have any idea what the sanctions might be for that young woman and her mother from within her own community? As I also said, I have worked with a number of girls who have come forward because they are in fear of so called honour killings. Karma nirvana give figures on their website of the numbers of young women they deal with on a weekly basis and they are shocking. Saying that we as a society didn't used to be much better is to completely miss the point of what is going on right under our noses.

I am not anti Muslim, I have Muslim friends and colleagues who are very willing to discuss these issues openly and we can respect each other' viewpoints. We very often agree, but if we don't that's not a problem. I disagree with my friends on any number of issues. As I have said several times, and I'm bored with repeating myself now, I am more concerned about the girls and women who don't have the freedom to express a view. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown says it much better than me.

It isn't anti-muslim to be opposed to niqab in public. It's anti-oppression. I suggest those who think otherwise read some of the excellent articles linked to on this thread. It might improve their understanding of the issue.

vamp, I really can't do those young people justice, but they stressed the multi-faceted aspect of modern Britain and, most of all, tolerance, and fairness and equality before the law.

It is not a twisting of tolerance to be opposed to women being forced to cover their faces and being allowed to keep them covered when no other group of people is allowed to in the same circumstances (e.g. in a criminal court). Allowing exceptions on the grounds of religion is not tolerance, it is giving special treatment instead of sticking to the fair principle of one law for all.

I totally agree that the law of a country needs to apply to all equally. I do not agree with oppression of women, I am an atheist so believe all religious 'rules' are invalid.

However, I will still bang on though about the type of mediation of debates about Muslim practices which encourages anti-muslim groups/individuals to feel that it gives them the 'right' to target women wearing veils/ hijabs /niqabs for verbal and physical abuse.