Women said we were genuine tonight.

Hunterf

Oh dear I really do not understand your arguements - although I can appreciate you have very strong views about them and you are entitled to them, just as I am entitled to mine.

Florence56

All I am saying is classes can not be made ladies only without consideration to the men who have been attending these classes for years and for new men who want to join and if any expense is incurred as a result it must be paid by the ladies who want ladies only classes.

Frank

I'm sorry I asked I seem to have read this somewhere on quite a few other post's.

Groundhog Day?

Strange incident at the Bums and Tums class tonight.
A lady smacked the bottom of a young lady in front of her while she was doing the cat stretch.
The nearest man was about 5 yards away.

Frank

It's all right if women who know each other do that Frank...

Dare I bring up the religious factor here? What about Moslem women who are unable to attend mixed classes? Should they be penalised for their faith? (I expect this has been thoroughly investigated on a previous Frank Fread but I missed it)

NfkDumpling

As far as I am concerned Moslem women will have to arrange to go elsewhere.
Most of the classes at the centre I attend have had men in them for years and you can not suddenly penalise them because of their sex.
I suppose the centre could say that say 2 classes a week are for women only but this would not work for example one man is a nurse and works varying shifts.
At various points he goes to every class in the centre and has been doing so since the 70's.
He also goes to former women only classes.

Frank

NfkDumpling

There are private gyms which are women only and I have been advised there are women only classes in Handsworth about 7 miles away.
Obviously women would have to drive to these classes or get a bus there.

Frank

Haven't we had virtually every word of this on a previous thread? It was hugely boring and unproductive then.

Goundhog Day - boring, boring - trying to catch newcomers out with stupid threads that have been posted before - please someone stop this person - I don't believe a word he says and please newcomers take what he says with a massive piece of salt

I think Frank is making a big fuss about nothing. He obviously has a huge selection of leisure centres within easy reach - and public transport to get there. Our nearest gym is 7 miles away and no bus. We have a travelling gym once a week in the Methodist hall (mixed) and classes in that new keep fit dance thing (mixed). Other than that - we go for long walks.

Quit whinging Frank!

Goodness, dorsetpennt, why take it so seriously?

HunterF
The trouble with your continued argument on woman only classes is the facts of the whole long history of sexual harassment of woman by men.
From receiving unwanted sexual comments, through groping, to indecent exposure and rape.

These are very good reasons why women feel uncomfortable doing keep fit etc when men are about. and want a man free space where they can feel safe.
I know it can work the other way, with men being harassed by women but most of these crimes are perpetrated by men.

It seem present in all parts of society.
www.independent.co.uk/student/student-life/we-must-do-more-to-fight-sexual-harassment-at-university-8556855.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2151169/Sexual-harrassment-time-high-40-women-say-inappropriately-touched-colleagues.html

As others have said If men persist in this behaviour women have a right to have places where they can feel safe and comfortable in situations such as keep fit and Yoga classes where they feel very vulnerable.

The problem is with some men's behaviour!

So you men out there, stop complaining; think hard about why women don't trust having you around in these places and do something about your collective male attitudes towards women. Fat chance of it ever happening though.

[like]

Nelliemoser

As I have said before men who go to aerobics classes on more than a couple of occasions do treat the women with respect and do not go harassing women as they know they would be excluded from the class.

I do get a bit of banter from women who know I was rubbish at sport and they do get a bit back.

I must point out I was attacked once by a drunken woman just outside New Street Station.
She obviously did not know what she was doing as a police man was watching from about 5 yards away.
We were both pleased there was a cctv camera watching us at the time.
She was arrested mainly I think because she was swearing and being abusive to the officer.
He called for a woman officer who arrived very quick.
I was not bothered about the assault but she obviously had to be warned as it could have been a lot more serious if she had hit a child for example.

Frank

I have kept out of most of this, Frank, because I don't like going round in circles.

But if you were a man, 5 ft 2 and lightly built, without a lot of musculature, and had been brought up to be peaceful and non-aggressive, how would you take to being enlisted in a crack commando regiment, where everyone was over 6 ft tall, supremely fit, trained in personal combat and imbued with the belief that they were in control of everytning and everybody? And they were all gay and had been deprived of sexual contact for weeks?

Would you be a little bit uncomfortable at being alone with any one of them? Would you feel uncomfortable doing PE in your little shorts while the rest of them looked on? Would their admiration at your soft skin and graceful movements make you feel boxed-in?

Elegran

As I have said before men in a leisure centre would be excluded if they started molesting women.
If there were say 4 men in a class and 1 started molesting the women I am sure the other 3 would intervene to stop it.
Also there are often 30 plus women in the class so I am sure their combined strength would overpower the men.
Complaints have been made by the odd woman who wants the men excluded from the class but they do not get any support from the majority of the women who find the mixed classes fun.

In a class I went to in London a lady started using the class like a ladies changing room and was a little upset when she noticed the 2 men.
When we noticed what was happening we went and had a chat with the instructor about something we were intending to mention at some time looking away from the woman who was undressed.

Frank

Frank do you really think men who molest women do so in front of an audience?

You are unbelievable.

Ella46

You are confirming my point.
The 30 plus people in the aerobics class acts as the audience.
I have never heard of anybody being attacked in an aerobics class.

Another thing I must point out a man did attack a female nurse in a corridor at the hospital I was visiting once.
About half a dozen men piled in to stop it including me.
Sadly we could not get to her in time to prevent minor injury as it was a long corridor and the men were well away from the attack when we first saw it.
In that case however I heard the man involved had some mental health problems. No other women were around at the time.

Frank

You are missing everyone else's point, Frank. It does not take a molestation to put women off feeling "exposed" in their gym clothes and vigorous movements to male view. (SOME women, others are not bothered and the ones who welcomed you are an example. Some smaller, weaker men would not be bothered in my previous axample, because they are confident on their ability to get out of any "situation" which developed.

But if, for example, a woman comes from a culture where women most definitely do not put themselves into a position where men could take advantage of their relative weakness (and there have been terrible examples recently of what can happen in tho

She may be at risk from osteoporosis from lack of sunshine and weight-bearing exercise, she may have menfolk who will not let her go to a mixed class, she may have no money of her own and be unable to afford to pay for a private class.

Is it better that she is excluded from an essential facility, than that active and independent men cannot join it?

Think of someone else besides yourself, Frank Would you like your daughters to be discriminated against like that?

Elegran

Everybody has to pay anyway to go to classes at the centre I go to so if anybody has no money they can not go.

My daughters use the mixed classes and they will not use classes which do not admit men.

Frank

I think Frank has a point. Why shouldn't men who do behave properly attend mixed aerobics classes? If the sports centre is run properly anyone (including women and/or children) who doesn't behave with propriety should be chucked out and banned from membership.

Essentially aerobics is just a form of dance. There is no reason why the classes shouldn't be for both genders, like most dance classes. I suspect it is not essential in these classes to wear clingingly tight clothes. If the women feel too much of their shape is on display for men's eyes, even when the men are behaving with propriety around them, clearly it is the women's problem and there is a simple solution – wear less revealingly clingy clothes for the class.

What Frank is arguing for, as I understand it, is no discriminatioin on the grounds of gender for classes run by the council which council tax helps support. If there was discrimination on the grounds of gender against women attending certain classes there'd, quite rightly, be outrage.

Frank, please drop the plea for a refund though. You have done well to reduce people's tendency to discriminate on the grounds of gender. Congratulate yourself and leave it at that

Hmmm,

Purely as an observer.....I've been keeping a bit quiet of late.
I just find it interesting Frank, that you feel the need to raise an old arguement knowing how much reaction it caused amongst the ladies in here. It would be lovely to see a few men come on here and give us some insight.
My dear old chap has cast his eye over proceedings and muttered somthing like, 'he likes to dominate things doesn't he?'. Hey ho!

Re your comment at 1106, elegran. It is the culture of negativity towards women in some parts of the world that is the real problem, not the allowing of mixed classes in a culture where men and women are supposed to be equals. When in Rome....