Plant based eating and veganism

I'm not preaching. But you do hear vegans saying its more environmentally friendly, someone said it would save millions of lives, it's a more responsible way to live. Which may all be true in the long run, but just at the moment the rapid rise of veganism in the rich, powerful West is causing a lot of hardship and environmental damage in the poorer parts of the world.

Does the Vegan Society have a view point? How do vegans deal with this morally or do they just employ an "as long as I'm alright" stance?

I just think these are questions that ought give asked and information that ought to be out there, not ignored or subject to sidetracking.

I would like to recommend Tesco "free from" cheese, which tastes almost the same as cheddar. It is made fromcoconut!!

I've been vegan since I was 11 (56 now) and I can remember my poor mother making me various food items from lentils, lentils and more lentils. Things have improved so much, with big brands such as Linda McCartney and now Quorn selling so many vegan items. Ocado is a lovely place to shop, you can enter "vegan" in the search bar and wow - the choice is amazing. Vegan cheese is improving too, with Sainsbury and Tesco both doing reasonable versions. I'm not a preacher but LOVE helping those who would like to go vegan and need help so if anyone has any questions on how to manage it feel free to ask. My first Post by the way so hope I'm not breaking any rules or anything by mentioning brands.

Eglantine on the subject of the impact of veganism on poor countries, please consider:

"The Amazon rainforest has been facing severe deforestation problems for several decades — it has lost about a fifth of its forest in the past three. While there are many causes, one of the main causes is cattle ranching, particularly in Brazil. Trees are cut and the land is converted into a pasture for cattle grazing. According to one report, an estimated 70 percent of deforestation in the Amazon basin can be attributed to cattle ranching. Using these numbers, cattle ranching in the Amazon has resulted in the loss of an area larger than the state of Washington."

I think you should ask the vegan society about their stance, and to oppose veganism by claiming to be worried about people in poor countries having to supply the west with exotic foods, is certainly taking the moral high ground. Maybe those suppliers find this gives them a better livelihood. Most vegans I know object to buying supermarket veg wrapped in single use plastics, and tend to buy organic veg boxes etc. I am concerned about the environmental impact of my choices, I wonder how many people stuffing their faces with hormone fed burgers are?

Yes but sidetracking to the clearing of land for cattle doesn't make what's happening in Kenya any less true. A bit of a politicians trick?

Or saying that meat eaters don't think about what their doing.

Or accusing me of taking the moral highground.

I'm just giving you some information that you don't want to think about because it doesn't fit I with what you wasn't. So let's ignore it eh?

want not wasn't

Of course we are thinking about it - this is why many prefer to buy local organic, its not just vegans who buy avocados btw.

I am not sure I could be - but I certainly believe we should eat less meat, and from good farming and husbandry.

Good meat is expensive- but then if you eat less of it- and maybe 2 days a week without- then the cost balances out.

Been thinking about it all night actually- I watched a cow giving birth late afternoon yesterday in the field behind us. She had quite a time of it, and when the calf came, she was so gentle, and licked it and licked it lovingly- and nudged it again and again until it stood up- then fell again- then got up again and fed- blood and placenta still hanging out.

Farmer came and took the calf- and the cow was distraught and crying like any mother would. I cried with her - and been upset ever since. Here, veal is popular- so if male it will be raised in a dome with a tiny enclosure and go to butchers at a few months- if female- she will have the same fate as her mother- giving birth time after time and the calf taken away very soon after- so she will produce milk for us.

Don't think I could be vegan ... but- maybe more of ut should be witness to what happens, and think.

I agree with you eglantine
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/opinion/sanctimonious-vegans-well-look-closely-diets-global-impact/amp/
“Yes, vegans care deeply about animal welfare and the environment, but not about the farmers and their families who are now paying the price for this “lifestyle movement”. Underneath the most popular vegan crops lie buried scandals and tragedies.

The exceptionally knowledgeable food writer Joanna Blythman warned about this five years ago: “There is an unpalatable truth to face for those of us with a bag of quinoa in the larder. The appetite of countries such as ours has pushed up prices to such an extent that poorer people in Peru and Bolivia, for whom it was once a nourishing staple food, can no longer afford to eat it.”

humptydumpty: organic farming provides better welfare for cows
www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalreports/dairy-industry-sector-report/milkandanimalwelfare.aspx

standards do vary but the Soil Association is generally regarded as best and most reliable
www.soilassociation.org/organic-living/whyorganic/better-for-animals/organic-cows/

from an ethical standpoint Soil Association Organic milk and cheese is probably the best to buy - it's more expensive because of the better welfare but it is delicious and can be consumed in the knowledge that you haven't distressed heifers and calves

But its not just vegans who buy these foods, and I agree we should look at the social and environmental impact of choices that are available. many people ( not just vegans!) buy foods that in the past would have been thought of as "exotic" which has an impact on different countries and I'm all for improving the lot of those in poorer countries, and if this means paying more for such foods or goods they produce I'm all in favour, and in trying to be more sustainable in food production, Don't blame vegans for this situation though. ( I think the argument has strayed somewhat from the original)

geri the OP asked what everyone thought about abstaining from meat and dairy eating, from a health, a moral and an environmental standpoint, and then went on to give we meat-eaters a few lectures on the subject.
So I don’t think anyone has strayed from the OP at all.

Sorry.
Us meat-eaters.

I am all for trying to ensure that animals are allowed to live as natural a life as possible, but I have no intention of becoming vegan. I hope no-one takes offence at that, as I am happy to respect their choice.

I only buy meat from shops that support animal welfare - I don't know whether the movement has spread to the UK yet.

Here some farmers are keeping bulls again, which I regard as a step in the right direction regarding both dairy and meat herds. I buy free-range eggs, and pork certified to have come from pigs that lead an outdoor life. Rarely eat veal, as it is still difficult to know how the calves were kept.

I eat very little meat but am not a full-blown veggie. There's no way I could give up dairy - I love it and would hate not to ever again enjoy lashings of butter on a slice of bread, or cream in a cake etc.
Veganism seems to be taking vegetarianism to an extreme degree and I simply couldn't do it.

Farmers are businessmen or women. Farming changes all the time, just look at the diversification that has taken place over the last 50 or more years. Veganism is not taking away farmer's livelihoods, it is a change in the same way that other changes in eating habits or farm subsidies relating to set aside or government policies or the market push changes. And farmers change accordingly. The world of meat and two veg on Sunday followed by mince on Tuesday etc is long gone.

Well one poster seemed to be blaming vegans for global inequality which I thought a bit extreme. Yes, tastes change and farming will change. If more people want to consume less meat and more grains, beans etc then the market will respond.

I too eat very little meat and try to do so as ethically as possible. But as my son pointed out how on eart can vegetarians be correct or vegans even if you consider how they would manage if they were Eskimo ?

Some cultures don't eat meat. Some cultures don't eat dairy. You are not comparing like with like. Eskimos (Inuits) exist on a meat/fish based diet, but that is in the absence of many other choices. Vegans don't say everyone in every environment should or could be vegan. We have many more choices than Eskimos so are fortunate that we can choose to be vegan (or not), Eskimos not in the same category.

I have been a vegetarian for nearly fifty years. My choice, Never looked back.

Why is it that when speaking about veganism, people start throwing insults, like how narrow minded vegans are and that they don't care about third world countries etc? The way most vegans think and feel is to do as little harm as possible and to assume they only care for animals and not humans is totally inaccurate. As I said before, when it comes to food, not only are we very defensive but the very fact that veganism bothers some people could very well mean that there are some underlying issues there. Ask yourself, would you like to be in their place? I think not.

Veganism isn't going to happen overnight. The agricultural and dairy industries provides meat and dairy by demand, so as that demand decreases, so will the number of animals cruelly brought into existence just to satisfy our taste buds. I for one would rather there be a lot less animals that are free to live in peace. Animals are going extinct every day in the natural world, more often than not due to the greed of man, so its a little foolish to think that cows and sheep etc., would overrun us or alternatively, disappear totally.

Where do we get off thinking animals are inferior to us and there for us to do with what we want, without no empathy or understanding that they are living beings and wish to live as much as any human being? There are a couple of terms called specism and carnism and I would suggest people research those terms before making uninformed comments.

PS. for those who think animals are killed "humanely": the word actually means compassion and there is no way whatsoever, no matter how you justify it, to humanely take any animal's life when it merely wants to exist and live.

PS I am not talking about eskimos or indigenous tribes or anything remotely like them. They live in a totally different world than we do and have to rely on what they have to survive on. We in the West don't and have so many choices and can therefore choose to make much more wiser choices in the foods we put in our body and not want to contribute to atrocities that go on every day in farms and slaughter houses.

Very well said, marlowlady

Just spare a thought for those of us who would perhaps like to be more vegetarian than we are but are obliged to live a life on the "beige" diet due to acute bowel problems. I'm tired of being told what to eat by evangelical vegetarians/vegans. I'm an adult, I make informed choices, but there are medical reasons for my diet.