ADHD and school exclusion

Cossy

Glorianny

If the school has excluded twice within 3 weeks they are obviously not providing your grandson with the support or proper circumstances to enable your GS to cope with his problems. It would be helpful if before he returns they, his parents and him could meet to discuss what has happened and what might have been done to prevent any repetition. Sometimes what needs to happen is for all staff to recognise the problem, step back before the boy feels he has to hit out, provide him with a safe space to reflect in and discuss the discipline issue when he has calmed down. Your GS may well be aware of what he needs but simply be unable to stop himself once he has reached a certain point.

I’m sorry I cannot agree with you. Without the ECHP in place (or even a diagnosis) the school have neither the funds nor the resource to be able to provide the right support for this pupil.

Even with a diagnosis and the funding in place this child would still have to learn lashing out like this is not acceptable behaviour, whatever the reason.

Sometimes a day “exclusion” gives the child an opportunity to chill out, calm down and reflect. All the other pupils in the class have to be supported too. Schools are currently dreadfully under funded, assessments are behind, some schools are having to cope with much larger classes due to RAC issues and there’s a teaching shortage.

Please don’t blame the school for this, it’s the whole system which isn’t working and letting down both pupils and teaching staff.

Sorry Cosy but two exclusions in such a short period indicate a school problem. I have worked in schools which very rarely excluded and had excellent and supportive policies which enabled them to keep children in education. I've also seen schools which have no such provision. It. doesn't need an ECHP it needs a school policy and staff who are capable of dealing with differences.
As for the lashing out of course it isn't acceptable but the problem should never reach that stage. The staff involved should be able to observe when a child is under stress and de-escalate matters to prevent such an outburst. It's called professionalism.
And some schools just can't do it. I usually found it was schools with the most problem children who coped better.
I worked through the ;last funding crisis and it really isn't money it's school ethos, proper policies and a commitment to dealing with differences.
As for a day out helping a child calm down, it usually has the opposite effect. The result of losing your temper is the reward of time out of school, a place you probably don't like anyway. It actually encourages misbehaviour.

Daddima

Daddima

So, EHCP is Education, Health, and Care Plan,
SEND is Special Educational Needs and Disabilities,

I don’t know what an LSE is . Learning Support something?

I agree with Pippa, and now I have ‘IEP’ to add to LSE, as I don’t know what either of them means. The acronym section doesn’t include any of these, or other medical type acronyms.

The term IEP (Individual Education Plan) and PLP (Personal Learning Plan) or even an IPM (Individual Provision Plan) all refer to a plan devised by the SENDCo (Special Educational Needs Disabilities Coordinator) or Inclusion Leader in partnership with the child's class teacher, parents and the child.

This plan has targets, usually about 3-5 for the child to meet and it should also say how the targets will be met, who will be involved and there should be a review section. Plans should be reviewed termly or sometimes half yearly.

This sort of evidence is essential for an EHCP application and the parents should be given a copy. The school will need to prove that they have tried everything to help.

Another poster mentioned that autistic conditions can often co-exist with ADHD. An autistic 'meltdown' could explain the level of violence. In my experience (ex-SENDCo), ADHD alone would not normally cause such behaviour.

Glorianny

Let’s agree to disagree then, my daughter, a primary school teacher, currently has 5 of her 34 reception children on the list for assessments, she has an extra Teaching Assistant to help her, 4 out of the 5 are boys, two are very violent and aggressive and one is a “runner”, one other is almost completely non verbal and, understandably , becomes very frustrated, very very quickly as it’s very difficult to know what he needs.

Lots of other little ones in the class have been hurt by two of the boys, who are both on short days at the moment as they simply cannot cope with full school days. One has been sent home once and when returned the next day did cope better. Every time there is an “incident” my daughter logs it after kneeling to the little one’s level and explaining gently that being aggressive towards others is not acceptable, as do the teaching assistants. One child scratches, punches, head butts and spits at both other children and adults.

Last week the reason he did this is because he was so upset that it wasn’t going home time. It’s awful for the children with additional needs, awful for the other pupils and awful for the school staff.

They have good strong policies, which are adhered to, and supportive Senior Leaders, and are a good school. The simple fact is not all children with additional needs should be in mainstream school.

I’m sure there are some schools who aren’t up to the job, but many are and there’s increasing numbers of little ones starting in reception with serious behaviour issues which are not just attributed to “additional needs”. Some in my daughter’s current class are unable to go to the toilet alone, hold a pencil or knife and fork, listen or sit still for a short while during carpet time.

All kinds of provision has been made to help those who need extra support and I’m sorry but funding IS certainly a factor as the waiting time for assessments is getting longer and longer due to staffing issues.

Btw, my daughter has ASD !

I’m sorry your family is going through this - but especially feel sorry to know your grandson (at the age of 9) is hurting the most!

Based on my niece’s experience with her son (autism spectrum) as soon as she suspected something amiss as a toddler, she found a children’s THERAPIST for evaluation (first), then treatment (second) to help her child. It also helped the family to understand HOW to help him but mostly how to deal with him - it’s a learning curve. Right now parents are overwhelmed and can’t cope. (BTW - nephew is doing great! He’s turned out to be funny and fun, instead of an unhappy disrupter. Will be entertaining kindergarten, 5 yrs)

The earlier you get help - schools will dismiss as much as possible, and time is running out. Drugs are not always the solution.

Help is there - proper channels - you have to seek it out - everyone will benefit.
USA Gundy

Entering kindergarten - not entertaining.
Well, maybe that too…

Gundy

He does sound like he will be entertaining at Kindergarten, and of course, only a few children with autism and other additional needs and/or neuro divergence are “disrupters” some can be quiet and withdrawn and others entertaining and cope well. I wish both your dear GS and OPs GS and all parents the very best moving forward

Schools are having a dreadful time at the minute with behaviour at an all time low. I teach 3/4 year olds and I’m seriously thinking of weaning it right down due to mental health breakdown of these young people. Teachers are struggling I can assure you. We can’t keep blaming lockdown fir everything but it certainly hasn’t helped with youngsters mental health. Maybe mainstream isn’t right for him. The ecph might take a while as there’s a horrendous backlog. Time and support from you is what is needed.

Sorry ECHP missspelt.

EHCP will get it right eventually! Long day!

Cossy

Glorianny

Let’s agree to disagree then, my daughter, a primary school teacher, currently has 5 of her 34 reception children on the list for assessments, she has an extra Teaching Assistant to help her, 4 out of the 5 are boys, two are very violent and aggressive and one is a “runner”, one other is almost completely non verbal and, understandably , becomes very frustrated, very very quickly as it’s very difficult to know what he needs.

Lots of other little ones in the class have been hurt by two of the boys, who are both on short days at the moment as they simply cannot cope with full school days. One has been sent home once and when returned the next day did cope better. Every time there is an “incident” my daughter logs it after kneeling to the little one’s level and explaining gently that being aggressive towards others is not acceptable, as do the teaching assistants. One child scratches, punches, head butts and spits at both other children and adults.

Last week the reason he did this is because he was so upset that it wasn’t going home time. It’s awful for the children with additional needs, awful for the other pupils and awful for the school staff.

They have good strong policies, which are adhered to, and supportive Senior Leaders, and are a good school. The simple fact is not all children with additional needs should be in mainstream school.

I’m sure there are some schools who aren’t up to the job, but many are and there’s increasing numbers of little ones starting in reception with serious behaviour issues which are not just attributed to “additional needs”. Some in my daughter’s current class are unable to go to the toilet alone, hold a pencil or knife and fork, listen or sit still for a short while during carpet time.

All kinds of provision has been made to help those who need extra support and I’m sorry but funding IS certainly a factor as the waiting time for assessments is getting longer and longer due to staffing issues.

Ah Cosy I can see where you are coming from, but there is a world of difference between rising 5s who have been in school for about 8 weeks (maybe less if there was a staggered start) and a 9 year old who has been in school for 4 years. The problem is different and dealing with it is different.
Your daughter has my sympathy reception teaching is one of the most difficult tasks.
As far as. the non-verbal child is concerned has she considered Makaton? It's taught in a lot of nurseries and used to help children with late speech. There are lots of books about it and lots of you tube videos demonstrating different words. Even a few words might help the frustration. She could have the whole class signing songs.
I do think that the standards expected in reception classes now are a problem for some children. They re not ready to sit and learn, they need more play and physical activity and they may not manage a full day.
I did have those same problems when I taught reception, but no one expected me to teach a literacy hour.Children did learn but it was through play and activity which suited their needs much better.

Funding is a problem as far as providing support for children with special needs are concerned, but a school should still have policies which help staff deal with problem children without resorting to exclusion. Sometimes the solution is something which costs nothing. We had a child who needed his own space sometimes, a table with a long cloth over it provided him with somewhere he could sit quietly.

All children who have additional needs should be in mainstream schools if that is what they and their parents want and funding and support should be available to make that possible.

We had a child who needed his own space sometimes, a table with a long cloth over it provided him with somewhere he could sit quietly

DD has a child in her class who needs to sit under the table sometimes when everything becomes overwhelming.
A burst of supervised physical activity eg a run round the sports field, helps him, but in a large school with limited staff this might not be possible.

So sorry to hear this. My heart goes out to you and your family. Im sure you are all doing an amazing job with your grandchild. Im a retired teacher and have worked with many 5-10 year olds with autism and ADHD. Every child is unique so when it comes to school/ teacher support , what works for one child, may not work for the other. Even with financial support sadly, most teachers are not qualified/ equipped to bring out the best in your grandchild, although we desperately want to. I agree that two exclusions in quick succession is telling you that change is needed.What about part time schooling? In my experience that works really well for most kids who struggle. Increasing the time down the track if all goes well. I had a student who began 9-10:30, then gradually increased to lunch. We tried increasing it more but he became too anxious. I understand that this might be tricky financially. Just a thought. Best of luck and try to not to lose too much sleep over it.

Thank you Glorianny and yes I completely agree in the instance of OP GS - guessing he’s now in year 4 and I’d expect the school to have things in place well before now.

Yes, my daughter has a basic grasp of Makaton and the little lad concerned has also developed some actions all of his own too. It was awful for the first couple of weeks, but having built this little chaps confidence, he’s learning to communicate with her. Her concern now is helping him get some external help so when he moves up he’s able to cope.

My daughter did a year in a day nursery between her degree and NQT year and she’s found this has helped her enormously with those starting in reception. She loves her job and her pupils and is still only 26, so hoping she doesn’t get jaded and disillusioned.

Have a great weekend 😊

I have been heartened by your support and suggestions. I have spent the week thinking about the next step as my grandson may struggle with re-try after hitting the head teacher. By the way he asked to go out for a drink of water and was told no. There may have been concern that he would run away.

I have drafted a letter for parents to use in whatever way they want, to his consultant paediatrician who diagnosed him last year, asking for immediate outside intervention. I think his 6 month review was missed. I want to send copies to his GP, EHCP (special needs application) and the school, emphasising the urgency of the matter. Have also given thoughts to a change of school and him going down a year as he is an August birthday.

Am waiting for parents thoughts. Think I am taking a more assertive approach but feel it is a real crisis that could worsen if not dealt with immediately and appropriately. Just hope I can persuade the parents that urgent action is needed to help their son and it is not the time for blaming and fighting with each other.

Glorianny

If the school has excluded twice within 3 weeks they are obviously not providing your grandson with the support or proper circumstances to enable your GS to cope with his problems. It would be helpful if before he returns they, his parents and him could meet to discuss what has happened and what might have been done to prevent any repetition. Sometimes what needs to happen is for all staff to recognise the problem, step back before the boy feels he has to hit out, provide him with a safe space to reflect in and discuss the discipline issue when he has calmed down. Your GS may well be aware of what he needs but simply be unable to stop himself once he has reached a certain point.

It might also be worth a visit to his GP. There are drug treatments which can help children with ADHD.

But spare a thought for the poor teachers - they are trying to teach a whole class full of children and to get through the curriculum with OfSted breathing down their necks. Trying to help individual children with special needs is very hard indeed. Even when a child is assessed as requiring 1:1 TA input via an EHCP, the funding to make that happen is not forthcoming, or only part of it, and this has to come out of seriously overstretched school budgets. And if there is more than one child like this - it is very hard indeed to manage.

Struthruth - I am wondering if you are over-involved in this. It is the parents' job to deal with it as they see fit. Just a thought. I know you want to help, but I am not sure it is your role to be drafting letters. They have to tackle it in their own way.

I know you are understandably worried about this, but loving support is the best way forward. our idea of comfort with food and words would seem best.

What is being asked of teachers is very different to what was being asked even a few years ago. I am part of a specialist team which supports schools on this issue, am very used to the schools that put adjustments in place and those who dont. But what is happening now is different I think, numbers are unprecedented and in addition I cant remember the last time I saw specialist provision identified on a ehcp whatever the parents wishes were.

I am CofG at a local school and the numbers are extraordinary - one third of our pupils are identified as having special needs. Some are very education specific (dyslexia/dyscalculia etc.) while others present as behavioural.

One of the problems is trying to maintain a balance between children with SEN and those without, for the sake of both teachers and pupils, in the sure knowledge that this extra input will not be fully funded. If we are asked to take a child with an EHCP that indicates 1:1 is needed, we have to make a judgement as to whether the school is able to offer what is needed. If the head proffers a rational professional reason why in this instance the school is not able to meet the child's need, the LA just ignore that and the child arrives anyway.

Most of the children with EHCVPs do have specialist provision identified - the problem is the funding does not accompany the recommendation, so we are left to busk it.

EHCPs - slip of the finger!

I should say that our school is very committed to the education of children with SEN.

Luckygirl3

Glorianny

If the school has excluded twice within 3 weeks they are obviously not providing your grandson with the support or proper circumstances to enable your GS to cope with his problems. It would be helpful if before he returns they, his parents and him could meet to discuss what has happened and what might have been done to prevent any repetition. Sometimes what needs to happen is for all staff to recognise the problem, step back before the boy feels he has to hit out, provide him with a safe space to reflect in and discuss the discipline issue when he has calmed down. Your GS may well be aware of what he needs but simply be unable to stop himself once he has reached a certain point.

It might also be worth a visit to his GP. There are drug treatments which can help children with ADHD.

But spare a thought for the poor teachers - they are trying to teach a whole class full of children and to get through the curriculum with OfSted breathing down their necks. Trying to help individual children with special needs is very hard indeed. Even when a child is assessed as requiring 1:1 TA input via an EHCP, the funding to make that happen is not forthcoming, or only part of it, and this has to come out of seriously overstretched school budgets. And if there is more than one child like this - it is very hard indeed to manage.

I was a teacher Luckgirl13 and I saw schools with huge numbers of deprived. and problem children coping with those children because they had the strategies in place to do so.
I also saw schools which only had the occasional problem child failing to manage them, because they hadn't.
Yes school budgets are stretched but I would imagine exactly the same situation still exists

I actually worked in schools where sometimes around 50% of the children in a class had special needs and most of the others had disturbed backgrounds, which didn't actually qualify them for anything, but meant there was little or no family support for the child, and you never knew what emotional trauma the child had been through overnight, or at the weekend.

Money is important but an inclusive ethos, proper policies, clear guidelines and support networks do not depend on money

Have you worked within schools in the last 3 years, it's a completely different scenario, of course there are schools that moan about having one child with an ehcp and others who manage with 10 children with complex needs but that's not the picture now. We are having to identify the schools with the highest needs (very inclusive schools on the whole) and provide ongoing specialist support, but it's not touching the sides. Most schools I know are creating seperate specialist providion within their school. Not sure how this is much different from a specialist school but it's cheaper I suppose.

By the way he asked to go out for a drink of water and was told no. There may have been concern that he would run away

The schools my GCs have attended have all asked them to carry a water bottle with them. I thought that was pretty standard now, as the problem of dehydration and brain function has become widely recognised.
When she was at nursery my GD always told us we had to drink lots of water so we didn't get "raisin brain"!

Galaxy

Have you worked within schools in the last 3 years, it's a completely different scenario, of course there are schools that moan about having one child with an ehcp and others who manage with 10 children with complex needs but that's not the picture now. We are having to identify the schools with the highest needs (very inclusive schools on the whole) and provide ongoing specialist support, but it's not touching the sides. Most schools I know are creating seperate specialist providion within their school. Not sure how this is much different from a specialist school but it's cheaper I suppose.

This is very interesting.

There is a local village school near here that is becoming a specialist school for dyslexia. Once again the wheel turns full circle and we head back to where we once were with specialist provision for those with SEN.

Galaxy

Have you worked within schools in the last 3 years, it's a completely different scenario, of course there are schools that moan about having one child with an ehcp and others who manage with 10 children with complex needs but that's not the picture now. We are having to identify the schools with the highest needs (very inclusive schools on the whole) and provide ongoing specialist support, but it's not touching the sides. Most schools I know are creating seperate specialist providion within their school. Not sure how this is much different from a specialist school but it's cheaper I suppose.

No Galaxy and I would imagine the problems are worse. But the inner city schools I worked in had huge problems. The ones my children attended and where I sometimes did supply didn't. The contrasts between how children were handled was extraordinary.
Units were being created in the inner city schools then. The concept being that children who were completely unmanageable and /or presented a danger to themselves or others would spend time in a unit and eventually return to mainstream. It never really worked.