The Scots Language

Elegran, Charleygirl, and other nice posters, could you explain to me what I have said that annoyed Zakouma so much?

That was not a normal reaction to a simple question. There is something wrong with a poster who reacts like that.

What a vile post.

I think Gaelic is a totally different language, in the same way the that Welsh is?
Mostly spoken in the far North.

Bretton , Cornwall, Wales shared ethnicity perhaps?

This is fascinating. Is Scots in any way influenced by Gaelic or is it entirely separate? Do more people in Scotland speak Scots than Gaelic or does it depend on the region? Excuse my ignorance but I know far more about Wales than Scotland.

When you say that Irish and Scottish Gaelic are two distinct tongues can they be mutually understood like the Brythonic languages of Wales, Cornwall and Brittany?

very evocative.

Charleygirl5

My roots are from the east coast of Fife and I have never heard the word hanstle.

My inlaws were from Cowdenbeath (mid-Fife) and knew hansel - The first time you used anything just acquired (new clothes, car, house, cooker) you were hanselling it.

Robert Burns' poem "Rantin Rovin Robin" has a verse -

Our Monarch's hindmost year but ane
Was five and twenty days begun
Twas then a blast of Janwar' win'
Blew hansel in on Robin.
( 25th Jan =Burns 'night = Rabbie Burns birthday)

www.bbc.co.uk/arts/robertburns/works/ rantin_rovin_robin/

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

My DF went to school in the 1930s in Glasgow but I have not heard of any lowland Scots being bilingual, only the northerners who speak Gaelic.
My DF used quite a few words that we do not use in England but I thought it was more of an accent or dialect than a language.

Is Doric a language or a dialect?

Grannynannywanny

That’s a blast from the past to hear hanstle. I haven’t heard it in over 40 years. My elderly Scots neighbour excitedly appeared when I took my newborn babies out for their first pram walk saying “Oh I’ll need to hanstle the baby” She’d then proceed to slip a few coins in the pram for luck. She was Glaswegian of Irish parents .

I've heard of the custom but not the word.

We used to call it "crossing the baby's palm with silver".

And, of course, always put a coin in a purse or bag which was given as a gift.

nanna8

My friend’s mum was from a Scottish island and didn’t speak English at all, only Gaelic. That was in the 1980s. She visited my friend who had to translate for her when she was here.

Like Welsh it was banned but I believe is now taught in many Scottish schools.

However, I don't think it's compulsory as Welsh language teaching is in Welsh schools.

I do remember meeting with our D of E about 35 years ago when Welsh was being introduced into schools here; he was moving up to Scotland and said his children would be going to a school where Gaelic was taught.

I don't know much about Doric despite having many Scottish friends.

nanna8

My friend’s mum was from a Scottish island and didn’t speak English at all, only Gaelic. That was in the 1980s. She visited my friend who had to translate for her when she was here.

Amazing.

My roots are from the east coast of Fife and I have never heard the word hanstle.

We used to love it when our very posh spoken English headmistress used to read from the Lorimer Bible at morning prayers. It was so funny hearing her reading eg 'She pit the bairn in the mainger'. Also loved the version involving motes and beams in eyes but can't remember the Scots version of them. It was game of her though. Full marks for effort!

paddyann54

Scots Gaelic is a different language to Scots .It was banned when the "union" was formed as was the wearing of tartan(plaid) and all manner of things Scottish.Thankfully people are again looking to their roots and loving what they find.

Not quite true about plaid paddyann54, I remembered this article from when I did a bit of checking before I went to a wedding in Scotland where everybody wore their clan kilts (a lovely sight).
www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts-and-entertainment/myth-buster-was-tartan-really-banned-after-culloden-597252

We'd always take a hansel when visiting family or friends in a new house.

My OH comes from a small port in Ayrshire . The sailors used to say they could understand the Norwegian sailers bringing timber to the port.

Many Dutch words are the same or similar to Scots.

Ailidh

Parsley3

I remember the word hanstle too in connection with giving a small gift as a token of good luck to new babies but also to new purses. To this day, if I am giving someone a purse as a present I have to hanstle it with a coin.

Me too. Even when I'm taking handbags or purses to the charity shop, I always leave a wee hansel in them.

Thats wonderful, actually brings tears to my eyes. Sorry about my spelling. As I've only ever heard the word, I didn't know how to spell it.

Grannynannywanny

That’s a blast from the past to hear hanstle. I haven’t heard it in over 40 years. My elderly Scots neighbour excitedly appeared when I took my newborn babies out for their first pram walk saying “Oh I’ll need to hanstle the baby” She’d then proceed to slip a few coins in the pram for luck. She was Glaswegian of Irish parents .

How interesting. Perhaps it migrated with my father from Ireland.

Grandmabatty

Scots was a language before standard English was developed from old English. It is not a dialect of English. It is a separate language with roots in Norse, Germanic and french. There are obvious similarities to English and words have migrated. One that I find fascinating is the Icelandic word for a vacuum cleaner which is Stoorsooker. The Scots word for dust is stoor so you can see the kink. 😂 Scots usage generally in schools was belted out of children in the 30s to 70s or so. Schools had a strong link with the church and there was a demand for proper English to be spoken. Many children and then adults used Scots in the home and to describe how they felt but English for academic purposes. It's well described in Sunset Song by Lewis Grassic Gibbon. So there was a dichotomy created in the Scottish psyche: Scots for the heart and English for the head. Gradually there has been an upsurge in the use of scots as a language. It is accepted in certain sqa national five and higher English papers. It is taught in most primary schools albeit sometimes as a month's focus. Some secondary schools teach it too. There is a recognition that speaking the language you are born with enhanced other languages learned. I would say it's piecemeal across Scotland depending on where you are.

I notice when I watch Scandi crime....they refer to flitting as moving. Another link.

TerriBull

I do believe, the Danish for child is "barn" so I imagine the word "bairn" as used in Scotland and parts of the north of England floated across from Scandinavia centuries ago. The etymology of language and how the settlement of different cultures affected the indigenous people is very interesting.

It’s also barn in Swedish.
A good many place names, especially in the N of the U.K., have Old Norse elements. Thorpe and Thwaite are 2 that come to mind, plus anything ending in -by.
‘Thorpe’ is presumably related via a common ‘ancestor’ to the German ‘dorf’ (village).
Ditto ‘dale’ and German ‘tal’ (valley)

At a Viking exhibition at the Brit. museum, I read that our word ‘starboard’ came originally from the Old Norse word literally meaning ‘steering board’ (for their ships) which was always on the right hand side of the vessel.

We are multilingual here in Scotland.
Scots or lallans is spoken, or at least understood, in my area Edinburgh and Lothians. As Grandmabatty says, there is a concentration round about Burns Night in January. All my 4 DC won prizes for recitation and singing of Scottish songs.

Where DD lives further North, Gaelic is taught in school.
Gaelic came from Ireland originally but although many words are similar, they, Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are 2 distinct tongues.

My DB emigrated to Denmark many years ago and we've often discussed the similarity of many words.
The kirk is the church in both languages. Bord is the table. Barn and Bairn. Mouse pronounced moose is the same.
Ji, means I, pronounced yi.
Apparently fishermen who traded between Norway and Aberdeen could understand eachother.

Garlic is not Scots. It's a different language altogether. Schools across Scotland today can choose to have a Gaelic Hub where children are immersed in the Gaelic language. All railway stations in Scotland have signs in both English and Gaelic. It would be nice to see Scots represented too. Minimoon a well known Scots poet of the past there! I would think your dgd had as much chance as anyone else! Scots in many schools focuses on everyday language, not just poetry now.

Our local primary school has a Scots assembly every year to mark Burns Night and the children often learn various poems in Scots. My daughter had to recite The Sair Finger.

When my granddaughter was at primary school in Argyll and Bute the whole school had to learn a poem in Scots. Each year group had a different poem to learn. There was a competition for the child in each year who recited their poem the best. My granddaughter didn't stand a chance being English.
This is it;

Twa-Leggit Mice by JK Annand My mither says that we hae mice That open air-ticht tins And eat her chocolate biscuits And cakes and siclike things.
Nae doubt it is an awfu shame That mice should get the blame.
It’s really me that rypes the tins When left alane at hame.
But jings! I get fair hungert And biscuits taste sae nice.
But dinna tell my mither for She thinks it is the mice.

Scots Gaelic is a different language to Scots .It was banned when the "union" was formed as was the wearing of tartan(plaid) and all manner of things Scottish.Thankfully people are again looking to their roots and loving what they find.