Grammar schools - 1960s/1970s

watermeadow

I always knew that boys passed with a lower mark than girls and that this was because girls at 10 or 11 are way ahead of the boys. The difference evens out later.
More boys than girls are very clever and more are less able.

Is there any proof anywhere for either of those positions?

Girls do better in single sex schools. Why did that stop, that is where girls have lost out.

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

Iam64

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

I thought my school and the boys school nextdoor was a great compromise. Girls in lessons, mixing with the boys at lunchtime in the canteen and on the field plus the joint drama productions and sixth form. Best of both worlds.

Easy when it became a comp, they just knocked the walls through on the corridors.

My husband's school was much newer but followed the same design.

Iam64

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

If a girl is bullied by a boy and consequently misses days and days of school, her educational outcome will not be good.

I don’t recall the research finding bullying the issue but might be wrong, the research showed in single sex schools, girls achieved better in maths and science subjects

Allira

Iam64

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

If a girl is bullied by a boy and consequently misses days and days of school, her educational outcome will not be good.

Bullying can be from either sex.

Again - I'm struggling with my largely blocked-out memories that existed until mid-teenage/my father leaving the Forces - but, from what I can manage to recall, only one of the bullies during my secondary schooling was a boy and the rest were girls. I remember his surname was Brakespeare - but I can't recall anything of the names of the b*tches.

I learnt to head towards mixed groups and the more intelligent people as being the safest bet for company for me personally.

Iam64

I don’t recall the research finding bullying the issue but might be wrong, the research showed in single sex schools, girls achieved better in maths and science subjects

From what I recall, the research showed not bullying, but that boys dominated the classroom, demanded more of the teachers attention behaviour wise and were more confident in putting themselves forward, answering questions etc. Girls, almost without exception, would give way to boys.

This led teachers to underestimate girls’ ability and understanding, particularly in more traditional ‘male’ subjects such as Maths and Sciences.

Girls performance in written exams significantly exceeded teachers assessments of them in most subjects.

This was some time ago. I hope that, if the same research was carried out now it would look very different.

The 11 plus/grammar school selection system was very unfair. The number of grammar places available varied from one local authority area to another. If you lived in an area well provided with grammar school places s you had a much better chance of getting a place.

There's so much information coming out on here of just what a mixed bag there was from area to area and this is another part of it. Goodness knows how many people (especially women) are out there knowing they should have had better than they did - but school unfairness, problem parents, teachers who didn't tell boys to "pipe down and give a girl a chance to speak up", etc.

I've certainly had several women say to me over the years that they weren't allowed to take up a grammar school place they had been given too - by their own parents treating them that way. I'm thinking of a woman I know locally who has told me "Our parents let the boys go there - and I should have gone too - but they wouldnt let me" and she's a couple of years older than me and it's still rankling after all these years. Admits I then notice her husband again and wonder if she'd have got a better husband too if she'd not been prevented from going to grammar school.

CariadAgain

There's so much information coming out on here of just what a mixed bag there was from area to area and this is another part of it. Goodness knows how many people (especially women) are out there knowing they should have had better than they did - but school unfairness, problem parents, teachers who didn't tell boys to "pipe down and give a girl a chance to speak up", etc.

I've certainly had several women say to me over the years that they weren't allowed to take up a grammar school place they had been given too - by their own parents treating them that way. I'm thinking of a woman I know locally who has told me "Our parents let the boys go there - and I should have gone too - but they wouldnt let me" and she's a couple of years older than me and it's still rankling after all these years. Admits I then notice her husband again and wonder if she'd have got a better husband too if she'd not been prevented from going to grammar school.

I'm surprised at so many girls not being allowed to go to grammar schools. I grew up in an inner city area in the 50/60s. It was a notorious area, we featured in the News of the World on a fairly regular basis. Most of us were the children if immigrants, Catholic school and predominantly Irish, Polish and Italian. I do remember a couple of Spanish families and some Greek Orthodox. In my last year in Primary school I was in a class if 48 and 23 of us went to grammar school. I don't remember anyone turning down a place and trust me there were some very poor families.

I love that auto correct turned my primary school into a Primark school

I went to a coed Grammar school where I think the sexes were pretty even. Even though it was a coed we were kept segregated if not in class.

Sorry posted too early.
Living in Wales at the time I took my ‘11 plus’ at just ten years old. Good at the time but when I went to art school I had to do an extra year as I was too young to be entered for the Intermediate exam.

Lathryus, thsnks. Your summary is as I remembered
It’s dreadfully similar to women in the workplace. How often have we sat in meetings where a woman makes a suggestion, it’s ignored then the same suggestion from a man seen as spot on

Iam64

Lathryus, thsnks. Your summary is as I remembered
It’s dreadfully similar to women in the workplace. How often have we sat in meetings where a woman makes a suggestion, it’s ignored then the same suggestion from a man seen as spot on

I've heard about that happening often - ie a man stealing a womans idea and getting her "reward" for it.

I guess it's down to lack of confidence that many women experience?? It used to be my standing joke whilst I was still working age that I'd got a low-level job for paid work and part of why I had to do so much (unrelated) voluntary work was in order to work at something that was two levels higher (albeit had the downside I wasnt getting paid for it....). I don't recall any man having the nerve to try and "steal" an idea from me there - but I do recall I was next in line to take over being the major Officer in a voluntary group one time and a man thought he'd just nip in and grab it from under my nose - and I soon made it very plain to him "It's MY position - and I'm having it. So.........off". I think there's times when women have to learn to be blunt and not smile apologetically whilst trying to get what is rightfully theirs - praise, a payrise, whatever else.

But I am someone who got to my 30's and thought "Workmen are taking me seriously - at last - re work on my home" and then I moved across country (to what is sometimes called "The Land That Time Forgot") and I think I've finally managed to get the message through to workmen/deliverers here of what I mean when I say "There isn't a 1950s housewife here to wait in for things etc - there's only me and I'm a PERSON". I do get funny looks from them sometimes - but the message sinks in eventually that there isn't a "woman" living here...there's a "person" from the 21st century here.

I read some time ago that there were also significant differences in pass rates according to locality.

I did not pass the 11+ and don't agree with grammar schools - not because the system worked against me but that it entrenched the idea that you could judge at such a young age the inherent abilities of a child. It obviously meant that children who were poorer, had fewer learning opportunities and whose parents had received only a very basic education, were less likely to achieve a pass.

No doubt some people will say it is sour grapes but I honestly believe that, had I passed the 11+, I would still at some stage have realised that it was not a good system.

I was very fortunate in that I went to a secondary modern school whose headmistress was Swedish and she had a much wider view of education. Each year we had a whole week of arts festival that all children could participate and succeed in - individual verse speaking and group verse speaking, all types of dancing, playing musical instruments (including the recorder), solo singing, singing in choirs, etc, etc.

Nevertheless we soon became aware, as we progressed through the years, that we were not expected to achieve much in terms of academia or a career. There was never any suggestion that we might aspire to something more challenging than shorthand and typing or shop work.

“Nevertheless we soon became aware, as we progressed through the years, that we were not expected to achieve much in terms of academia or a career. There was never any suggestion that we might aspire to something more challenging than shorthand and typing or shop work”

At my high school were schooled for the times, our aims were certainly not raised high, we all left school at 15 or 16 in my class at GCE 0 level most either went to technical college or started work as trainees or apprentices. All climbed the career ladder, qualified for higher levels as they were working, some became self employed.

Those I know about include Bank Manager, Accountant, Estate agent, Printer, Teacher, Police, Nurse, Builder and many others.
These all failed the 11 plus, those days girls married young and had families some carried on with their career some became home makers it was their choice, my wife was a nurse, had 4 children continuing nursing and midwifing for a full career.

We weren't failures

We weren’t failures and we took advantage of excellent apprenticeships and opportunities to take O and A levels so we could go to university or take professional qualifications without thousands of debt

The opportunities were there for the taking if you stuck with it and there were second chances along the way.
Nowdays everyone is pigeon holed from age 11 with these early “choices” and then funnelled through the system accordingly.
I find today’s educational systems repressive.

when I worked for British Gas, a significant number of the senior managers I worked for had started as apprentices of some sort or another in the gasworks.

At one time the chief executive had started as a lab assistant and worked his way to the top.

I have never understood why people seem to expect to be encouraged and have approval for everything they do.

Even as a child I knew what i wanted in life and just went ahead and followed my own inclinations and ignored all the doom sayers. I went to university in the early 1960s. Girls from my girls only school went to university to read subjects they studied for A level. It wasn't until my last day at school, when a teacher said something about me being a budding historian that I said that I hadn't applied to go to university to study history, my application was to study economics. The stunned silence that followed this announcment was amusing. I am not sure many of my teachers knew what economics was.

Granmarderby10

The opportunities were there for the taking if you stuck with it and there were second chances along the way.
Nowdays everyone is pigeon holed from age 11 with these early “choices” and then funnelled through the system accordingly.
I find today’s educational systems repressive.

Granmarderby10 Why do you say everyone is pigeon holed from age 11? All pupils study the same thing until 14 when they choose their GCSE options, same as we did in the 60s with our exams

I left school and didn't do A levels. My dad died just after I started at grammar school and then my mother remarried. He was a disaster and I was very unhappy. He ruined my dad's business, went off with all the money and left my mother destitute. So yes my teens were messed up and at 17 I got married and at 18 I was a mother.

When I sorted myself out I asked my boss for day release to do an HND and went on to a degree. He asked if I could do five days work in four and I said yes so he signed it off. I did four years, had two kids and id be in work at 8 am to make sure everything was done before I went to college. I took work home on top of my college work.

So I agree there were opportunities.

We had a semi selective system, 13 plus, 2 years for everyone in a secondary modern, then 3 years in a grammar school of sorts or stay in the secondary modern. It was some kind of hybrid system the county council introduced in 1967 to avoid going fully comprehensive. It never worked properly as pushy middle class parents made sure their children went to the grammar school even if they weren't good enough and the secondary modern only taught subjects to CSE level wirh less qualified teachers. In 1984, this weird system was finally axed when the county went fully comprehensive.

Myself and my school friend who did day release from 16 fell into the work routine easily after 2 or 3 yrs a year at college we were qualified craftsmen, I went on to an extra year management course. After college some changed direction but whatever they chose there were plenty of opportunities.

Today it’s the transition from school to the adult job market that’s the problem, at school you are learning something new every day, as a junior at work you are repeating the same task which is likely boring and menial, many just can’t handle that away from their mates.

Chardy

Granmarderby10

The opportunities were there for the taking if you stuck with it and there were second chances along the way.
Nowdays everyone is pigeon holed from age 11 with these early “choices” and then funnelled through the system accordingly.
I find today’s educational systems repressive.

Granmarderby10 Why do you say everyone is pigeon holed from age 11? All pupils study the same thing until 14 when they choose their GCSE options, same as we did in the 60s with our exams

They do have choice now, although they have to take core subjects. I do believe there might be too much choice.

Back in the 1960s we had no choice, we took 9 subjects at GCE and there were no options.