Grammar schools - 1960s/1970s

There were other problems that were to do with social context.

Making pairs like

Cup and …..
Knife and …..
Salt and ……

It was unfortunate that one of the choices was the word “bucket”.
😂 well, it's been bucketing down today! ⛈

Lathyrus3

There were other problems that were to do with social context.

Making pairs like

Cup and …..
Knife and …..
Salt and ……

I came from a very ordinary home and went to a junior school in quite a poor area but we did take past scholarship papers for a couple of years before the exam.
I took it first age 9, didn't pass, thank goodness, then again at 10.
Pairs were something that was drilled into us.

I don't know anyone who didn't use proper cutlery in the 1950s - certainly everyone seemed to have school dinners and we used knives and forks.

This was in the seventies and in an area where a lot f the children were of Asian background and used fingers and spoon.

They didn’t have saucers either, just a simple handless cup. And a cruet set was totally off the walk for them.

It wasn’t the 11 plus, to be clear. Just a test with a cultural bias.

I was very, very fortunate with my schooling - RC primary (72 pupils in total, and a magnificent headmistress who valued every child equally) and RC Direct Grant Grammar for girls. The latter was an eye-opener for me cos I met and made friends with girls from backgrounds I could never have encountered at a local school - including daughters of diplomats - and my first experience of girls of different nationalities. I guess this is why, as an adult, I have never felt any need to discriminate or disrepect people with different colours or backgrounds. The seconday school was highly academic but we also did subjects like Home Economics and was where I learnt to make excellent pastry! The school was also a residential convent and several of the nuns taught us. Again, I found them all superb teachers

By accident (long story) I learnt at around age 14 that I had got the top mark in the whole of Derbyshire in the 11-plus exam. Nobody had said a word to me at the time (rightly so).

My parents didn't want me to go to the DG school. It was 20 miles away and meant a considerable walk, a train journey into Manchester and a bus out to Moss Side, and had an expensive uniform available only from one supplier. My parents were not at all well off, but they managed to pay for all this somehow. Many years later I learnt that the daughter of my own DD's piano teacher had got my place at the local grammar school when I turned it down, and had gone on to become a solicitor.

I left at 16 cos that was expected by my parents, but by the age of 20 I knew I could do better than basic clerical work. I fortunately got support from the Training Manager where I worked to do an ONC in Business Studies and then progressed to an Accountancy qualification, supported by the firm I worked for.

I remember the 13+ system cos my cousin took the exam and moved to the local Grammar - where he proceeded to gain just one O-level in Art! I also met twin boys in my early teens where one had passed the 11+ and one had failed, so went to different schools. The "failed" one took his 13+ but did not pass so the "successful" one switched to the sec mod cos he couldn't bear to be apart from his twin!

My own DDs went to the local primary but went to different secondaries cos of changes in the reputation of the school of my first DD by the time that the second DD was due to start - and both were excellent choices.

My GS is in his 3rd year at his secondary comp and is a very bright boy; his sister started there today and has SEN (but loads of confidence). The school has a good reputation so I have high hopes for both of them. There are grammar schools in their city too, but their parents didn't want them to go to different schools.

It's a pity that so many of you didn't have the great experience at school as I had, but I am still not clear why that was.

Allira

Frogoet

You are in cloud cuckoo land
Of course grammar schools were not the be all and end all but many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

I'm confused, what was the social content?

I'm wondering that as well - ie "social content" - was there "social content"?. Maybe there was and I don't remember - because my memory is so very patchy/so much blanked out until my father came out of the armed forces.

I'm rather struggling against odds to know just what went on in my life up until mid-teenage - when he finally came out of the armed forces at last - and so I guess my memory could start "clicking in and acting normal...

The OP's piece looks quite odd, apparently based on hearsay, and with no mention of the considerable regional differences round the UK. In my area, most of the grammar schools were single-sex (50s and early 60s), and there seemed no great shortage of such schools for girls?

Someone mentioned the entire unfairness of the 11-Plus exam. This argument has been done to death, at some point you need to do tests/exams, some people deal with them better than others. Some people deal with all sorts of human situations better than others, those situations don't disappear because of that?!

Also, the idea of ongoing assessment has been exposed as open to all sorts of abuse. The revelation of late that AI can be used to help with submissions should make people realise that a proper exam is the only reliable kind of assessment?

My brother had to do 2 days worth of assessment tests when he applied for the RAF, and he got offered an aircrew place. What would they do if someone decided that some people can't handle the pressure of exams, let's give them a place decided by how they speak, or their name?!

Regarding the actual papers, I had oversight of them in my time as a teacher, being the observer at a twinned school to ensure compliance of the process.
I had a copy of each paper, with the answers.
I was quite comfortable with the verbal reasoning and the maths, but the non- verbal .... even with the answers, I could make neither head nor tail of some questions.

Visting family friends in the 1960s, their DD was swotting for her 11+. She had revision booklets. These were the forerunner of the past papers my DC had for their O and A
levels.

I am glad the 11+ is no longer the divider it once was. The thought of my creative DGD, with their creative spelling, having to go through what we went through, makes me shudder.

CariadAgain

Sounds like a subject for enquiry to me that so many places had separated grammar schools. I just took it for granted that throughout my schooling there was no segregation of sexes and it carried on that way when I moved onto grammar school.

What were the excuses/reasons given for having girls grammar schools on the one hand and boys grammar schools on the other hand? Did they basically teach the same subjects in the same way and have the same expectations for both sexes?

Yep - after the school went comprehensive = there were boys in my cookery class as well and I was the only girl in the woodwork class and could have done car mechanics if I wanted to. Cue for "general" stuff and they decided to show us all a real life video of women giving birth one day - and it was duly shown to both sexes at once and I took that for granted - whilst the teachers counted out 7 pupils that reacted strongly (eg fainting) to it - 6 boys and 1 girl (no guesses for who the girl was LOL.......). I guess it was part of hammering it home to us that we were NOT "girls" - we were "people....sex irrelevant" and they found their ways to make the downsides of living a "female" lifestyle very clear to us. Hence I've been gobsmacked and angry ever since in every context if I got treated as a "woman" instead of as a "person" and hadnt realised my society was still like that and there have been "words" sometimes with offenders....

Basically - I guess I was lucky that my secondary schooling - at both points (grammar and then comprehensive) treated boys and girls absolutely equally at all points and I saw no sign of them even trying to be discriminatory. So I came out into the workforce without a thought in mind that anyone ever would try and treat me differently for being a woman - so confidently went for whatever I'd decided to go for (sex irrelevant). So the only sex discrimination I ever got anywhere was from my mother - but not from my father (who never forgot he hadnt been allowed to take up a scholarship he'd won and continue his education after 14 - because he came from a large poor family).

I have always understood single sex education favoured girls, no being dominated by loud boys but boys did better in mixed sex schools as benefitted from the environment.

Personally I found an all female environment very positive. Everything run by strong well educated women.

We had joint sixth form which was easy as the boys and girls schools were like a giant semi-detached so the sixth form corridor was open between the schools. No one under sixth form could use that corridor.

In many areas, rhere were two ‘parts’ to the 11+ examination. The first part was the actual exam and the second was a further selection process, often held at the grammar school itself. Following this, the figures were ‘fiddled’ because not enough boys were making the grade. This appalling piece of social engineering sent a cohort of kids to Sec Mod and let me tell people on here who are disparaging them, we had a great education, took the Oxford GCE exams to O Level and I then went to the (horrible, ghastly ) grammar school to meet up with my year group again in the Lower V1, where I took three A Levels and went on to train as a teacher. Others in the form at Dec Mod went on to do great things.

I went to a single sex grammar school after passing the 11+, the boys grammar was a few miles away, my parents took my best friend and me out for a meal after passing. I didn’t go to university.

This appalling piece of social engineering sent a cohort of kids to Sec Mod and let me tell people on here who are disparaging them, we had a great education, took the Oxford GCE exams to O Level
Yes, I posted earlier that the two single-sex Secondary Modern schools in our town were very good. Some of my friends from primary school went there and we were upset at being split up. The ones I know did very well and many of us met up again at FE college. Many of us from the High School went there at 16, partly because we disliked the High School and its lack of career advice; they just wanted to produce more teachers.

Jaxjacky

I went to a single sex grammar school after passing the 11+, the boys grammar was a few miles away, my parents took my best friend and me out for a meal after passing. I didn’t go to university.

I'm beginning to think that single sex schools are a good idea. We were friends with the boys from the Grammsr school and met up outside school to play tennis, social activities etc.
Seeing the bullying carried out by boys and endured by girls now in mixed comprehensive schools makes me think separating them for educational purposes suits girls better.
I could weep with anger at some of the bullying I hear about.

The 11 plus was just sprung on us without prior warning one day. We had been doing a lot of these unfamiliar tests in a booklet form but weren’t told categorically what it was all about. This was in 1972

It was the dying days of the 11 plus exam though and from our last primary school teacher we gleaned that he personally did not agree with it at all (without actually saying)

I am guessing the primary school chose NOT to “talk it up” as they say.
Within the year it was all ended in this area and they were all rapidly integrated with each other. …for good or for bad..

All the main fuss was in any event focussed on the posh uniforms worn for the grammar schools velour hats for girls caps for boys etc. All that expense😯 so exciting though at the time.

Allira as I said earlier the single sex schools were supposed to be better for girls, mixed better for boys.

I think my school set up was good with semi detached boys and girls grammar, shared playing fields,canteens and sixth forms. We also did joint drama productions but girls able to study without having to put up with any boy led disruption.

My husband went to a grammar school about a mile from mine with an almost identical set up except their canteens were separate.

Grammar Schools in our area were single sex, having been co-ed pre WW11. We were not told our pass mark ,just pass or fail. We were given a list of the schools and had to list them in order of preference. There were 2 Catholic GS and 4 Council schools I chose my school because a friend used to take me to Saturday morning hockey games when I would be put in a school uniform and adopted as a mascot. I never did get to play hockey for my school. Our Headteacher tried to bring us up as “ladies” but we had to understand that it gave us an advantage, that we could do any job we wanted. No hiding behind “I’m just a girl” It worked, as we realized from the speakers at our OG dinners. I often wonder what she would think of my being a “Fellow” I started GS in 1955

Geordiegirl1

In many areas, rhere were two ‘parts’ to the 11+ examination. The first part was the actual exam and the second was a further selection process, often held at the grammar school itself. Following this, the figures were ‘fiddled’ because not enough boys were making the grade. This appalling piece of social engineering sent a cohort of kids to Sec Mod and let me tell people on here who are disparaging them, we had a great education, took the Oxford GCE exams to O Level and I then went to the (horrible, ghastly ) grammar school to meet up with my year group again in the Lower V1, where I took three A Levels and went on to train as a teacher. Others in the form at Dec Mod went on to do great things.

It is a surprise to me all round just how different things were in different parts of the country - I guess we all assume that the way things were for us in our part of the country was standard across the country. My very patchy memory until mid-teens doesn't tell me whether there was a further selection process or no and, if so, what it would have consisted of. Maybe that was what happened to me? - ie where even my mother stepped in and said I must have my pass I'd got. I learnt that no-one could ever get anything past my mother without her realising - and she was the "decider" in their marriage (unfortunately for me) - but my father would have had his say that "If she has a pass = then she must be given it and not have it grabbed from under her nose" because of his own experience of family poverty meaning he couldnt continue his education.

I guess people are going to speak from their own experience personally of what they had and the only negative thing I can say about the grammar school I had was that they didn't stop the bullies I was plagued with until they all left at 16 (though maybe they weren't aware I was having that problem - as I don't think it ever occurred to me to tell them and it was my parents job to notice and to have them dealt with - and they did fail me on that front. The teachers were all fine, as far as my limited memory then tells me, and I was someone that "made friends" with them often and in latter days recall things like being a regular babysitter for one of them.

One thing that sticks in my mind from Grammar School was that we were told quite regularly that we were stupid, thick, with brains like sieves. These were girls in the top streams of a Grammar school. It was quite demoralising and we believed it.

Presumably we were told this so that we did not get 'above ourselves' or become conceited. It was not good for self-confidence.

In my city no one talked about passing or failing the 11 plus. It was just you get to select from this list of schools or that list. No bid deal, no preparation, just part of a process.

The tricky thing was putting your choice of schools in a sensible order, as an example when my son was on the grammar school choice list his friends mother told me she was picking the same school as me for her first choice, her second choice was the most competitive school. I asked her if she thought he'd get into that school if he didn't get into the first choice. She thought for a minute and said it hadn't occurred to her that it was a wasted choice and changed it.

Lots to think about with these things.

Certainly wondering now how many people did worse/are aware they did worse because of being sent to the "wrong school" or similar.

I know my father never ever forgot his scholarship he wasn't allowed to take - as he put it "I used to stand in for the teacher sometimes in classes and help others with their homework and the headmaster came begging on the doorstep for me to be allowed to continue my education - but I knew my parents couldnt afford it (because they had had all those children - ie his multiple brothers and sisters)".

I could see just how frustrated he got when officers in the armed forces were clearly less intelligent than him - but they were telling him what to do. Cue for he may have been armed forces - but he did "argue back" when he got denied his promotion three times in a row before he got it and he did "question and win" at that point and it was a case of "Gawd help them" when they made him largely deaf with their heavy guns - but he noticed the officers were wearing ear protection they weren't being given - and he probably cost them rather a lot of money by the time he went for them about it and then helped all his mates to do the same......and also get extra pension...

Post war there were more girls born than boys. They were also doing ‘better’ academically at that age and the fear was that there would be significantly more girls in the grammar schools than boys. Social engineering at its finest!

Geordiegirl1

Post war there were more girls born than boys. They were also doing ‘better’ academically at that age and the fear was that there would be significantly more girls in the grammar schools than boys. Social engineering at its finest!

Most grammar schools were single sex, if more girls were chasing the same number of places then the qualifying mark will be higher. That's just maths.

I always knew that boys passed with a lower mark than girls and that this was because girls at 10 or 11 are way ahead of the boys. The difference evens out later.
More boys than girls are very clever and more are less able.

theworriedwell

Geordiegirl1

Post war there were more girls born than boys. They were also doing ‘better’ academically at that age and the fear was that there would be significantly more girls in the grammar schools than boys. Social engineering at its finest!

Most grammar schools were single sex, if more girls were chasing the same number of places then the qualifying mark will be higher. That's just maths.

I can follow the logic they used to argue on that.

But it would have surely been so easy to make all grammar schools for both sexes - ie the same as some (including mine) were. Easy-peasy then - just a case of the top x% got in - ie to match the number of unisex places (regardless of sex). Job done.

All they'd have had to do is keep existing classes as they were - but combine them all (and split over the different grammar schools) from that point onwards. Easy-peasy - and year by year the (newly combined) schools would just have "places" and not boys places and girls places.

"Thats just maths" sounds like a phrase they used to justify treating some girls badly and robbing them of their places in advance.