The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact

Sassenach you appear to have all the answers on this one!!!!! I am stunned by your post!

Oh, MesMopTop, is there no clue in what your d said to you that tells you what went wrong? Even if she spoke cruelly, is there nothing in her words that gave you a hint of why she feels the way she does?

If not, she may just be taking her own unhappiness out on you, even though it's no fault of yours. I'm sorry but you may just have to wait until she sorts out her own feelings and, maybe, gets counseling, before you and she can have a relationship again.

The recent hurt is new, so, imo, it's normal for you to be feeling this pain. But, after a while, you might want to seek some counseling yourself to help you cope.

I'm glad you're sharing this with us, but are you sure you can't share with dh, as well? He knows something's wrong, as you say, and may think it has to do with him if you don't say something. I know he's ill, but he might appreciate being able to comfort you, just as you take care of him. Think about it.

nina1959 These acronyms really irritate me - what is an AC please?

Well said Smileless xx

So sorry Tuppence for you & your DH

MesMopTop you really need to confide in your husband, he loves you and will help you through this nightmare, as will we, your fellow grandmothers in this very sad boat.
I was the same in the first year, I didn't sleep or eat, no radio or TV, couldn't read anything, so cancelled my 3 subscriptions to my magazines that I had had for 12yrs, they are linked to my work, so I would study them each morning, but when I was cut out I just couldn't concentrate! I had suicidal thoughts too. My little dog kept me from doing anything, because I knew she wouldn't want to live without me & therefore it would have to have been us both I grieved terribly

Be aware MMM that Starlady is not estranged & does not understand anything, hence all the questions. She sees herself as an agony aunt on here, but her last paragraph to you is good.

giulia AC - Adult Child

Sassach We were all happy loving families once, what has happened to us, can happen to you!...Oh yes it can!

MMM there is nothing you are thinking and feeling, whether you've articulated it here or not that we wont understand or have experienced so please, don't ever feel that you'll be judged by those of us who are estranged as 'a drama queen'.

I think Starlady's advice about talking about how you feel to your husband is excellent and I hope that you'll be able to do so.

One of the problems is that a different child rearing culture existed when our children were young. It was considered OK to give the child a smack if they were naughty. We’re not talking about ‘beating’ children here.

But this generation see it as ‘abuse’. They don’t understand that it was no such thing. Therefore they consider themselves to have been abused.

I'm glad Yoga and Smileless agree with my advice about talking with your dh MMT. I hope it resonates with you, as well.

Unfortunately, Yoga gets upset whenever anyone talks about what might be going on in somebody's ac's mind or suggests there may be clues to what went wrong. I'm not sure why. I hope you give some thought to what I said about what might be going on with your d. If it's too painful to do that now, then maybe in the near future.

Also, I agree with Smileless that you're no "drama queen." You are pouring out your heart, and this is a good place to do that.

@nina1959 Thank you so much for this post.
I joined Mumsnet to try to understand the way my DIL thought. I must say it depressed me. Your use of the word brainwashing lifted a veil for me. I now realise why my son has changed, the constant warped internet pseudo psychology which she has adopted has rubbed off on him. In the middle are my beautiful grandchildren. Will I ever see them again?

Nina hasn't been here in a while, I notice, Esspee. But I'm sending you (((hugs))).

Oh wait... I'm not sure if you've already been co (cut out) of your gc's (grandchildren's) lives or if you just have reason to think it's going to happen soon.So you have any contact at all with ds (dear son) or your gc?

Regardless, my heart goes out to you.

I hope so Esspee and when you do, what a wonderful day that will be.

Esspee So very sorry you are cut off from your Son & GC, come and talk to us on 'our; page for Grandmothers cut out of their AC&GC lives, it helps to talk with those in the same sad boat, as we all understand & have been there.

Oh Nina1959 it's as if you've lived with me and written my story. If I had a £ for everytime I asked what it was I'd done wrong and been told "you know very well" I'd be rich. Sure I made mistakes as a mother but hasn't everyone. Again like most if I were to do it all over again now with the experience of the past 25 years to call on I'd do it very differently. My own mum was a very hard woman and treated both my dad and I appallingly. Many have said she doesn't deserve the care I now give her in her old age but I don't for one minute consider doing anything but caring for her. The younger generation seem intent on taking a long haul flight, 3 busses and a train to find offence.

Oh I love that glammy "The younger generation seem intent on taking a long haul flight, 3 buses and a train to find offence".

You made mistakes, we all have as children ourselves and as parents whether or not our AC have cut us out of their's and their children's lives. As for "do(ing) it very differently, there aren't many things I'd change if I had my time as our ES's mother over again, and those things that I would certainly haven't warranted us being CO.

glammygranny

I guess there are 2 sides to every story. But no one goes No Contact without consequences for themselves too. It's not an easy path to take. It is painful, full grief and mourning.

What would it take to end NC? An admission of the abuse; acceptance of responsibility for the abuse; an apology and a commitment to family therapy, perhaps?

Railing against NC shows an inability to accept that others can make choices for themselves. So the desire for control continues... And if your child is a Narcissist and doing it for kicks and control and is discarding - the parent was involved in making the personality disorder and needs to look at that and accept – and heal - their part in creating an ego that needs to discard.

The OP just sounds very sore that her sense of entitlement to have access to her Grandchildren and her desire for total control has been thwarted. It is a typical response of a Narcissist to blame the other party and makes themselves the victim. There is absolutely no reflection on their part in the dynamic that lead to AC making the difficult decision to go No Contact. Indeed abuse – smacking etc – is condoned as a normal part raising a child. It is not, and those comments are of great concern to me, and should be red flags to anyone reading them. An adult child who has not been abused would not consider normal discipline to be abuse on reaching adulthood.

So much short sightedness on this thread. Of course people go No Contact for no reason and many go NO Contact for very good reasons.. I often am astounded at the narrow view of posters and think many people only ever see things from their own experience. If their DIL has cut them off then every DIL who is having problems and asks for advice with her inlaws is in the wrong. Then pop over to Mumsnet and for some every MIL is a bitch or annoying because that's what some who have MIL problems believe and that's the advice they give to others.

I say if you have a horrible vindictive relative, cut them off, life is too bloody short to put up with the lunatics of this world. Also know you could be the most decent person and you will come across, possibly a DIL or SIL or even your own adult child who is going to hate you whatever you do. That's not your fault if you have been cut off from your grandchildren and your own child is too bloody weak or couldn't care less to stand up for you.

Regarding Narcissts, if you haven't lived with one or been in the path of one, you would have no idea. My expartner was the nicest man when I met him. He turned out to be a nightmare. Eight years ago I started googling his traits, I had no idea as I had never quite met someone like him. My ex had also had a shocking childhood trauma when he was seven, which is sometimes the beginning of Narcissism in a person. People don't normally go to be diagnosed by a professional to see if they are Narcisstic or have some other personality disorders but they usually know what is wrong with them. He once told me that the lines on his hands which looked like faint Xs were because he had been nailed to the cross. That's very grandiose, one of the traits of a Narcissist, he had them all. It does help to have some idea of what you are up against if you are living with or have a relative whose behaviour is not normal.

Of course there are people who are just mean like my grandparents, especially my maternal grandparents. They didn't appear to have personality disorders, just a strong dose of favouritism for some of their family and outright nastiness to the rest. My mother had a very difficult childhood with her parents and siblings. Her cousin, the son my grandfather's sister also had a unhappy childhood because of his mother. It was something my mother and her cousin always spoke about when they saw each other. I wish my mother had gone No Contact with her parents and saved me lots of unhappy times when we had to visit them. My grandmother was an utter bitch to me and my younger brother and sister.

Pallas My now estranged Daughter was the must loved, adored & cherished little girl in the whole wide world, she wanted for nothing, and was taught manners, respect for others and to be kind. I have never smacked my children, nor have I be unkind or said any unkind things to them, she was brought up in a very good home. Even during the initial estrangement procedure, I said not one unkind word to her.
Faye my s.i.l is top of the tree narcissit

Oh Faye, so deeply sorry to hear about your mgps (maternal grandparents) and great aunt! What cruel people they were! Imo, showing favouritism is one of the worst wrongs a parent can do. Sadly, too, it often goes onto the next generation, which was probably what happened in your family. I imagine the kids of your mgps' favourite were treated much better. I hope you had a nicer experience with your pgps.

Sorry about your expartner, also. Sounds like he was more than a Narcissist though. Schizophrenic maybe? Or suffering from serious delusions of some kind? He may have needed meds.

You've had a lot of negative people in your life. How unfortunate! I hope things are much better now.

Pallas, I think your post makes a lot of sense, in general. But it doesn't seem to fit all the egps here, according to what they tell us.

"What would it take to end NC? An admission of the abuse; acceptance of responsibility for the abuse; an apology and a commitment to family therapy, perhaps?"

This is good advice, imo, if the ep/egp knows what they did wrong or can figure it out, especially in the early days. But what if ac refuses to forgive? Also, sadly, might it not be too late in some cases?

"And if your child is a Narcissist and doing it for kicks and control and is discarding - the parent was involved in making the personality disorder and needs to look at that and accept – and heal - their part in creating an ego that needs to discard. "

How can the egp do this if the child is already grown? And how can this help end the estrangement?

I'm surprised that you feel the post from Pallas makes a lot of sense in general Starlady. For me, the only ones it would make sense too are the AC who are CO their parents.

"What would it take to end the NC? An admission of the abuse; acceptance of responsibility for the abuse; an apology and a commitment to family therapy perhaps?" Well maybe Pallas, if our ES was to do all of the aforementioned there may be a chance of ending the NC but not necessarily.

As for parents taking responsibility for their part in raising a child who in adult hood wants to discard, what about the EP's whose AC have married a narcissist, and it is for that reason that they've been CO? And for those parents who may have inadvertently raised such a selfish child, to become such a cruel and controlling adult, what about that AC's responsibility or are we supposed to at best condone and at worse applaud them for taking absolutely no responsibility for their own actions?

"But it doesn't seem to fit all egp's here, according to what they tell us". Starlady not sure what you mean when you say according to what they tell us. Are you doubting the word of posters you've been responding too on this subject for some time?

Excellent post, as always Smileless

As for Starlady I really don't know how she has the cheek to come on 'our' page with all the negative things she says about us, not just on here now, but on other threads in the past too

"What would it take to end the NC? An admission of the abuse; acceptance of responsibility for the abuse; an apology and a commitment to family therapy perhaps?"

Honestly? Nothing.
You can't do those things with some people. You can't talk to someone like that, it's like talking to brick wall.

In her head, she was a great mom. That's her version. She has nothing to apoliges for, so she won't. We took everything that was said wrong, and it's our own fault we took it the way we did. She has done NOTHING to deserve it.

Dhs version isn't like that and the way it's been since we met, isn't like that. He's told her what's happened, hes wrong. He's told her things she has said that's upset him, shes never said those things. You see? He stopped talking because she wasn't listening.

She knows what she's done because he's told her. She thinks he's wrong so won't for a second even entertain the idea that she is to blame because she knows best and what she 'knows', trumps what he's said. Fact.

You're absolutely right Violetfloss it is like banging your head against a brick wall but all you end up with is a headache.

Our ES and his wife are just like your m.i.l.