I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand why their adult children treat them like they do, this very well written post sums it up perfectly.
It was sent to me this morning. Obviously some AC have no choice but to keep their distance from abusive parents, we understand this. But this NC approach being liberally recommended is a highly destructive trend ruining many lives.
' I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I'm toxic when I feel it's the other way around. We've been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we've all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It's like they're reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called "Going No Contact". It's literally a scripted plan that they follow. It starts when they judge us as not just humans with whom they disagree, but "evil" because we don't see things their way. They complain online, and meet other complaining children who honestly believe, thanks to the self-esteem movement, that any time they were uncomfortable for a moment equals abuse. If their parents disagreed with them or made them do something that they didn't like or whacked their fresh asses when they talked back or refused to follow rules, they add this to their pile of justification. Lacking coping skills, they believe that anytime they are not happy, they have been wronged, and the person who dared to 'make' them feel bad is a Narcissist.
A Narcissist to them is what 'possessed' meant to our parents. The Narcissist is pure evil and a force to be feared and hated. They all bolster one another's justification of their interpretation of who we are. They swap war stories that are positively ridiculous, such as stories of the "evil narcissistic mother in law who wore a different dress than agreed upon to the wedding" or the "evil, narcissistic mother who took away all of their toys until their chores were done". I've seen both of those in these groups.
After justifying to themselves that they are RIGHT and their parents are EVIL NARCISSISTS, they begin plans to "Go No Contact". It is a systematic plan to discard the parents/grandparent, and turn the kids against grandparents. There are actual steps to this plan. They vary from group to group, but they are essentially all similar.
The groups talk a lot about setting boundaries, but what they call setting boundaries is just rude dictating, and setting their targets up to fail. Stuff like "I told my mother that she can come over between 12 and 1 on Sundays only. If she is one minute early or stays one minute late, that will be the end of her visits." Part of the plan is to NOT tell mother what she did wrong, just to enact the "consequence". They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere, ordering parent out of their house, putting parents in that time out thing where they tell us not to contact them for a certain length of time, and then they will "review our request".
They post joyful stories of their parents reaction to losing grandkids or their parents pleas for an explanation. They cheer each other on and congratulate one another for cutting family off. Refusing to give any explanation is part of the plan. They call it Taking Your Power Back.
They claim that it's to protect themselves from the evil narcissists who are terrorizing them, but in reality, it's not about protection or healing. It's about power, control, and just being shitty. They don't know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries.
Google "Going No Contact". You will find pages and pages of groups and instructions that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on "Going No Contact". It's like a map to navigate this territory. It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking "You're such a lemming". Who the hell would follow this crap.
They would, that's who'
I find some of Starlady’s posts patronising and sometimes extremely naive. Her ‘suggestions’ may well be helpful if we were dealing with adult, mature relatives.
It should be fairly obvious that many of us are coping with people who are completely irrational with either mental health or personality problems.
Yes Fairydoll or who have married someone with mental health or personality problems.
I think you need to experience this type of behaviour before you can believe it.
What you do with normal people, in a normal relationship does not apply to being a relationship with whatever these people are or what they are experiencing.
It doesn't matter what you do, because it's not you, it's them. Coming to that realisation is upsetting. There's a problem and you know there is, but the other person doesn't see it, there's nothing you can do to fix it.
Violetfloss that is the bitterest pill of all to swallow.
That no matter what I offered to do say or try nothing was going to alter situation my estranged daughter and s i law decided to cut us off and that was that.
I don't think we can ever know who to blame really it's easy to blame s i law. In our case but our daughter allowed this to happen.
Starlady am never quite sure why you post so much o. Subject you aren't fortunately involved in but do suspect you are gleaning information for some reason, as why else would you keep posting on estrangement issues I certainly wouldn't if I was lucky enough not to be estranged.
That's how we feel too Celeb our son's allowed this to happen so must carry the burden of responsibility for our estrangement.
True smileless but of course as our first solicitor said she had a Hunch our daughter had been pushed into a decision us or him, We shall never know sadly and not saying your daughter i law did this but they must have huge influence.
However a huge drawer of loving cards and letters from my estranged daughter right up until cut off tells me we did have deep love for each other which makes it harder to understand how I suddenly became the villain and she had her woes an awful childhood.
Her brother does not understand this either,
It hurts beyond belief when I worked so hard to give her all the love and care and emotional support I had to give always. We did argue and clash especially teenage years but I think lots mums daughters do, am sure I made mistakes and in one of my sorry cards 2 years ago I said I wanted to make it clear anything I did or said unwittingly to hurt her I was deeply sorry for,
I'm sorry but no need to call out starlady just because she has a different opinion to you. I also feel that mental health is bashed about far too much on these boards. It's strange how every EGP blames either their estranged child or in laws mh for the cut off. Has everybody suddenly becomes a psychologist
Weird bugsby how every estranged child blames parents? I certainly don't blame mental health although it's not normal behaviour it's lack of common decency or respect
I think you'll find most people are at loss understand starlady continual posts on estrangement when she isn't in that position fortunately for her nooone is calling her out as u put it I find her posts interesting
There is always a reason. Even if that reason is that someone does not want the other person in their life.
As PP said MH misdiagnosis is rampant on this site.
It can just be as simple as two people with very different personalities/ options would never have wanted to spend more than 10 seconds in the others presence if they weren't family. And there can come a time when those differences are just to much.
I agree with bibbity totally.
I've also read a lot of star lady's posts and found she simply tries to give an un bias opinion, often siding with the estranged gp. But as soon as she deviates she's called out on it.
I respect that it's difficult for those estranged, especially at this time of year but it may help to take on board the opinions of others who aren't estranged. We all know that family relations can become strained at times and it's especially important for those newly estranged to hear un bias opinions as I think that is a critical point where problems can be more easily resolved.
These two posters are not on here to support, quite the reverse. The best thing is not reading or responding to them. It's like breathing air into a fire.
I didn’t think this was one of the support threads for those cut out of their children’s lives, but a discussion thread on the ‘brain washing’ behind it.
So all views are welcome on here surely. I’m getting very bad vibes from those who just can’t take any viewpoint other than their own.
I'm digressing slightly from the subject of the thread, but I am interested in whether those on here who have experience of being cut off or of cutting off others know what the children in the family are told about the situation. My DM cut off her own family before I was born and refused to talk about it. Her parents died before I was of an age to contact them myself, so I will never know the circumstances, or see a photo of them, know what they were like, hear tales of their own childhoods, recognise a mannerism or physical feature of theirs in a grandchild. And of course neither will my DC or DGC, and so on down the line. Apart from the bare facts gleaned from official documents, we have been cut off too, from our own family history. Whatever the rights and wrongs of estrangement, it has deep and permanent repercussions for future generations.
I've just 're read the first post and the 'Going no contact brainwashing hoo haa' has been twisted to the point of bitterness. This is my version of events, and what DH had to do.
There is a script that DH followed as have many other people as that's what was recommended by the counsellor. Like I said these are not normal people, you HAVE to have a clear plan on how you can handle it.
Re the boundaries. Yes of course you need boundaries but the boundaries are again, something normal people can understand.
-'No mom I can't come and see you every day with our newborn' That's a boundary putting in place, the reason they are needed is because it's followed with this..
- 'I can't believe you're treating me like this, you're stopping me seeing my grandchild' see the absolute huge over reaction? The way it's all about the person who has had 'no' said to them. Normal people wouldn't
1) expect it
2)understand completely and wouldnt even ask!
You then have to use a sentence that they can't argue with..
-'Sorry you feel that way, You're welcome on day X, let me know if you can make it.' Done.
You are given paperwork on this when you see a counsellor, it is all part of being assertive and setting healthy boundaries, with people who aren't normal.
It is in a way 'taking the power back' but really, they never had the power anyway. They are standing up for themselves
which is why arguments happen and 'No contact' sometimes happen because the Adult child is in control of their life.
He hasn't enjoyed it, he hasn't had a laugh about it, he hasnt turned our DDs against her, it's not happened lightly, there are the steps to follow to try and manage and maintain the relationship but sometimes, it doesn't work.
Maggie, our DDs know who she is just that we don't see her anymore. Both children are happy with this, they are young so in a few years if they want to know more we will explain.
One thing we have drummed into both of them is that if someone is mean to You, upsets you, says nasty things to you and makes you feel rubbish about yourselves you don't need to play with them. Tell them that they are upsetting you and if the carry on to walk away, remove yourself from the situation and go and play with someone else. Not everyone is nice.
Of course that applies with school, but with life too. If at any point they ask, we will just go over that ^ if at any point they want to meet her when they are older, absolutely they can but they will have the tools to handle the situation and prepared for the outcome of what she's like.
No, no, no, Smileless, not doubting anyone! Sorry if it came across that way! Just wanted to make clear that I was making my comment based on posters' actual content and not just pulling it out of the air.
I don't see where I've said anything "negative" about anyone, as one poster accuses, just asked questions or made suggestions.
But, apparently, I hit some nerves. Sorry about that.
Thanks, bugsy, for defending me!
And yes, thanks, Friday, this does not appear to be a support thread, but rather a discussion thread. There are bound to be some conflicting opinions.
My two are both 3 and under so don't ask any questions yet.
However we do plan to be open and honest.
This will have to be done in a child appropriate way as the whole story is so long, complicated and at times scary I wouldn't be want to burden them to young.
So I guess our first response to any questions would be
'MIL was very nasty to Daddy and wouldn't be nice when asked and when people can't be nice then we didn't want to play'
Or something to that effect. I guess we'll have to work on the wording.
Maggiemay very sad post 
tragic you were cut off from your GM & I take the rest of your mothers family. As you say the repercussions will run through the generations to come. As for my dear GC, I imagine they were told by my GD's stepdad that I had died, therefore inflicting the worst emotion a humane & animal can experience; grief, an emotion that can & has caused death!
Maggiemay, my heart goes out to you! dm may have been deeply hurt by her family if she wouldn't even talk about it. My guess is that either she felt guilty or they committed some kind of "unspeakable" (in her mind) abuse. Did she ever seek counseling?
No matter what, I think she should have kept some pictures, etc. for you to see. If her relationship with them was really bad, maybe photos were too painful for her to look at. But, imo, she should have had some in an album that you could look at on your own. Tbf, maybe it never occurred to her that you would want to know about people you were never going to meet.
I hope you at least had df's side of the family in your life.
I can't imagine cutting out anyone of my own family. But if I had done that when my dd was young, I think I would still have kept some photos for her to see and told her something about them, so that, as you say, my kids and I would be able to recognize physical features, etc. Idk, of course, but I think so.
Starlady I agree.
We never had any cut offs in our family either side but sadly my maternal grandparents died before I was born, and my paternal ones were in Ireland, 60 years ago travel wasn't like today, my dad planned on taking us sadly my Nanna as I knew her by died before we went, but she sent regular parcels and when I wasn't told she had passed I apparently said oh no more parcels! Yet I was only -about 4 but can remember the parcels arriving!
I have one photo of paternal grandparents I treasure this and is framed on display.And I was named after my grandmother strangely I look very similar!
When I asked my Irish uncles they couldn't find anymore!
People just didn't take them in those days.
So yes it does have long reaching consequences to permanently cut grandparents off.
I treasure photo of my maternal grandmother despite never meeeting her.
I am sure there are valid reasons to take drastic step.
My ed only brought my beloved Grandaughter to see us twice in 9 months i understood and travelled 40 miles to see her each week, I thought wen had wonderful times.
It seems death of her grandad my beloved f i law triggered off the upset.
Sadly I will never know and if I did something wrong I would have been prepared to do almost anything to save the relationship.
Therefore violetfloss I totally get if you dh try sort things and wasn't listened to.
He sounds caring. It's sad to cut a loving parent off for whatever reason in my opinion,
As with any relationship communication is vital if I had upset my daughter I so wish she had told me not her best friend. Texting also has a lot to answer for they are Fired off and can't be taken back.
The last one I received told me I was critical and she had a new family now. Also I had upset her when grandad died.
I did tell her that her dad and lost his father and it wasn't all about her when she kicked off over flowers. Her brother also tried to explain this to her.
I was also devastated as he was like my dad
Sorry if digressing but we do wonder if s i law brainwashed her a bit. We will never really know only Going by last visit when she wanted her dad to see children and he absolutely refuse,
I feel sad to think I was critical because I was very proud of her. Maybe I was without realising it, I was extremely careful not to comment on any baby care.
Or maybe Maggiemay's mum had a husband like my estD and jealousy was the reason for the total cut out Starlady I have no doubt there will be not a single photo or video of any of my estD's birth family in their house! My heart truly bleeds for my poor little GD 
Celebgran I'm really surprised you agree with Starlady & Violet 
on reasons for estrangement!
Celeb that's so sweet yet so upsetting at the same time
To hold your hands up and say 'I messed up abit' speaks volumes for me personally. It sounds like there was alot going on at the time and then your FIL passing I can't imagine that made things any easier.
Heartbreak does funny things to a person. It sounds very full on.
'I feel sad to think I was critical because I was very proud of her. Maybe I was without realising it'
Does she know that?
I'm a hard faced lass but reading that made my eyes well up abit.
I hope you manage to see your DD again, have a good chat and listen to each other. I don't know everyone's situations on here but you have a good attitude Celeb, fingers crossed 2018 will be your year
I know Yoga, imagine seeing things someone else's perspective 
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