Support for all who are living with estrangement

Sounds good, Cherries! Perhaps you should start such a thread.

IMO, we would have to accept, however, that theyoung women would have something to say, as well, and be prepared to hear "notions, opinions, observations, potential explanations, stories, etc. that may differ quite a bit in content and style from what is often found here."

It certainly would be an interesting thread.

Metoo yes some people are toxic/abusive and if that is the case it does not have to be tolerated by anyone, blood relative or otherwise. However there do seem to be many cases of estrangement where this is not the case.

Who gets to say what constitutes toxic or abusive though?
Often in these situations the person who has been cut out feels they have done nothing wrong but the other person feels that the behaviour was intolerable and they couldn't cope anymore, which person is telling the truth?
Are we obliged to accommodate people whose behaviour we find extremely objectionable?
If it was a friend or partner you would feel at liberty to terminate the relationship, why can you not make that choice with a relative?

Good questions, IMO, Meeyoo. I think it's harder when it's a matter of parent/AC b/c, somehow, people expect that relationship to be "forever."

But I get your point about different definitions of "toxic" and "abusive." Also, I realize there is such a thing as "death by a thousand paper cuts." Offenses may not have been what we would normally call "abusive," but if there were a lot of them, the injured party might finally decide, "Enough!" They feel they were subjected to a lot and finally had to break free, while the other person feels they had to "walk on eggshells," only to end up CO, anyway.

No Meeyoo we are not "obliged to accommodate people whose behaviour we find extremely objectionable" but there have been countless examples here on GN where P's/GP's do feel obliged to do so for fear of being cut out.

TBH I'd rather be out of our ES's and GC's lives than walking on egg shells, keeping my thoughts and opinions to myself, seeking permission for everything we wanted to do with them and buy for them.

GC are supposed to be a blessing aren't they, not a means of control.

I think all parents expect the relationship with their child to last forever Starlady; and for the ordinary parent not perfect by any means, who cared for, loved and nurtured their child, knowing that there is no 'for ever' is shattering.

Not all estranged P's are cruel and abusive. Not all estranging AC are victims of their P's cruelty and abuse. In some cases it is the estranged parents who are the victims and their AC the cruel abusers.

death by a thousand paper cuts
the most skilled predators are very subtle, always have plausible deniability etc

Meyoo " the most skilled predators are very subtle, always have plausible deniability etc"

I am sure this is true. However, that does not mean that everyone who is plausible in denying that their behaviour justifies CO is automatically a "skilled predator," or even "guilty" of being justifiably CO.

Equally those who cut someone off may have "Plausible Reasoning" but equally they may not!

Exactly Madgran, why is there a need to judge?

Those who have a close and loving relationship with their AC understandably find it hard to believe that a parent who once had the same, in a very short space of time can find themselves estranged. Their inability to understand and make sense of it, is nothing compared to the P's who find themselves cut out.

Mad gran...I agree, and sometimes when an idea hAs taken root in somebody’s mind, the actions of the other party ( I’m putting myself in ‘the other party bracket!) can never be viewed in any other way.
So we’re back to we’re damned if we do etc.,
This is where I find the most pain is inflicted. Because any explaination is not accepted even though as queen elizabeth the first said I have not the facility to look into the windows of people’s souls!!
Our ac’s Are confident they know the reasons for our behaviour- but dare I say this is at least arrogant if not narcissistic.

Sorry I’m rambling and on the phone not laptop so I hope I’m making some sense

i just wonder, going by what has happened to a friend of mine, that an indulgent child, fear becoming the carer and not the focus of attention as their parent ages.

Peonyrose I've read your other thread and posted there. Your poor friend.

We've had a message from a lady in the village where we used to live. A news bulletin is produced every month and a picture done by our eldest GC has been selected for the front cover. She's asked if we would like her to send us a copy.

We said yes, then wondered if we really want to see it. Just the thought bought a few tears but I think it would be nice to put in the memory box.

Hello again, just dropping back into the estrangement support thread. I’m not actually estranged yet, but after we received a vile email last week from our son, I’m not sure there’s any going back. Other members of our family have looked at it and said it’s bullying. Which it probably is.

Oh dear Smileless what a dilemma. You live in hope, then you lose hope and find a way to survive, then just when you're getting by something comes along to rock the boat all over again.

Sorry to hear about the nasty email Maddyone. I don't know myself whether silence is worse or vitreol. ES doesn't talk to me but sometimes vents by emai at DH, which I can then read - and both are traumatic.

Loving thoughts to you all.

A year since i last saw my son and his family nearly a year since estrangement began, i never thought it would get to this point. I really thought my son actually loved me and would get in touch but obviously not, he has not visited his elderly grandmother, who is in poor health. She has expressed her wishes that she doesn't want him informed when she dies nor at her funeral, she is so hurt by his actions.
On the bright side my other son and i have spoken its awkward but at least he spoke to me.

Smiless2012 i would think the same as you, on one hand you want to see on the other you know the pain its going to cause. I hope you have now received it and put in your memory box.

I bet it's been a really long year for you Bopeep. Our ES's GM's have been deeply hurt by his actions, unable to see their GS and GGC, and for my mum they're the only GGC she has.

It's good that you and your other son have spoken and I do hope that given time your relationship will improve. We haven't received the publication with our GD's drawing on the front yet. It's going to be bitter sweet when we do

Smile less..I echo wholeheartedly hugshelp 1st paragraph, she couldn’t have put it better!
Now you’ve agreed to receive a copy let your heart rejoice that your gs has reached another milestone in his little life, then if it were me I would write a paragraph or two about how it made you feel to the little boy. Pin it together and put it in your memory box for him to read someday.
Shed a tear, rant on here and remembered, you are not to blame for all this!
Good luck

I don't know how you all cope, except you have no alternative but to go on. I cannot see how with estrangements that last many years how there could be healing, so much damage would have happened. I don't think I could ever trust the son or daughter that instigated it, they wouldn't be the person I had raised, as it's cruel. I feel at a loss as to think of any solution, you have all obviously tried all means. All you can hope is that other family will support you as will your friends. I found it so unsettlingly seeing my friend crumbling, how dare anyone treat their own family so.

I know the feeling that you can't believe it when more and more time has passed Bopeep - I can tell that things have changed in my ES's mind during his estrangement, he's re-written things many times and moved further and further away, and I see no way to bring him back as it's like he's moved onto another planet in his mind. I really think they have no idea of the intense pain they cause. I hope that's the case actually, because if they know and don't care that's even worse.
I'm so glad there has been some contact with your other son, I hope that grows better and better for you.

It seems to me that so many of them just write us off as unimportant in their lives, and move on, and maybe we have to accept that's how the world works for some people now. It seems so unfair as it feels like we tried to offer way more help and support to our kids than we ever got, yet it means nothing to some of them. Our DD seems to love and appreciate us and I hold that dearly.

That's a great idea Namsnanny. I'll do that and suggest Mr. S. does the same.

Yesterday, was my granddaughter's 17th birthday and after 3 years of estrangment, I'm finally allowed to see her but only before or after as I'm not invited to attend any celebrations or holidays.
I've learned much since the estrangement occurred and, while everyone wishes to blame the parents, it's seldom true, especially if they can't or won't tell you why.
In my case, it's my SIL and signs were there early on that he had issues. I have some training and he presented with approx. 18 of the 21 characteristics of a sociopath. My D is now a brainwashed empty vessel that only thinks what he tells her to. Her personality is completely different now; she has no friends; no job and goes nowhere without him.
I've chosen to love the memory of who she used to be but no longer feel anything for the soulless shell she is now. At first, I felt shame too but in learning about this- I don't anymore. She's made these choices and it's all about control and pain. I see it as an evil sickness and you can physically see the pleasure it brings to my SIL.
Then I stopped, everything. No more shame as this was done to me not because of me. I stopped crying over ppl who felt nothing for me. And I removed the unconditional love and emotions that kept me hooked, opened my eyes and realized some ppl are truly evil who are capable of doing this. Now the estrangement has backfired as I no longer want someone so sick and demented in my life. We can choose to love or choose to hate. Since estrangement is only healthy when physical and emotional abuse are involved and to choose to abuse someone purposefully by doing this, not to mention their own children, is unforgivable. I no longer care as my D has the man of her dreams; I wish her well but she's not a person I would ever trust, love or be open with ever again. They reach out now but I have no interest any more. I see the kids now that they know I don't care but the family is irretrievably broken, I feel uncomfortable around her, and I want no part of whatever this is, because it's certainly not love.

Hi, ladies. I've been away from the computer for a few days, but now back again and catching up.

Survivor, my heart aches for you! Your SIL sounds very controlling. I hope D comes to see this in time, but I'm glad you realize there is no way you can make her see it. I'm also glad you get to see your GC now, but sorry you were separated from them for so long. Do you really think that D and SIL are reaching out now b/c they feel you "don't care" or is it more b/c you stepped back and gave them some space. It's a little odd that you're allowed to see your oldest GD for her birthday but are not invited to the actual celebration. It sounds as if they are testing the waters to see how things go. Could that be? If all goes well, maybe you'll be invited to some future events? IDK. Maybe not. But I hope you make the most of the time you do get. And I'm glad you're not stressing over it anymore.

A very powerful and moving post Survivor, thank you for sharing with us here.

There is still so much control being exercised in your situation but now at the age of 17, your GD will soon become an adult in her own right, and depending on the amount of control that her father has over her, once she has reconnected with you, she may decide to make that contact more frequent.

IMO there's a lot in what you say about your D and s.i.l. allowing you to see your GC because you no longer desire to have either of them in your life. There's nothing to be gained in playing a game when the person or people you want to play with will no longer engage. When satisfaction is derived from the suffering of others, there's no satisfaction when your target(s) no longer appear to be suffering.

Like you, our relationship with our ES is irretrievably broken. There is no trust nor desire to ever be open with him again. After more than 6.5 years the love remains for the young man he used to be, but not for the heartless stranger he's become.

I've said this a few times recently here on GN but this is something that all estranging AC need to consider, and consider very carefully. There may come a time when they decide that they do want to reach out, too as Starlady has posted "test the waters" but having caused so much heartache and devastation, they may find that although the love their parents have for them remains undiminished, there is no longer the desire to have them back in their lives.

That's the risk AC take, IMO, Smileless, when they decide to go NC. Bit IDK how many of them realize this. Chances are, many of them think that door will always be open to them.