*SUPPORT* for all who are living with estrangement

TBH Smileless I don't know what to make of that. Really strange. I tend to feel she is bound to mention it to your ES. Must have shocked your husband at the time. Can't really imagine what you must be thinking. Surreal? Why do things have to happen that rock your boat? Just when you have finally sailed into calm water? Just hope it is a small rough eddy!. Hope you feel calmer today. Sending a big hug!!

You're right, it is surreal love0c. We'd never have expected it to happen; one of the reasons we moved but obviously not far enough.

Mr. S. said he didn't have time to be shocked or anything else as they literally walked into one another.

Just "a small rough eddy"; waters are calm today.

Smileless, that must have been a huge shock to your DH and how lovely of him to react as he did. I do think that the request for a hug is significant in a positive way. But I feel your fear. When we have been hurt so badly we are terrified of being hurt again, of opening ourselves up and being vulnerable, just as we are so nearly healed. The wound has scabbed over and we are afraid of the scab being knocked off and that we will again be left with an open wound. We fear most that which we love as it is only those whom we truly love who can hurt us in this way. I suspect that it will take a little while to process this incident which has stirred up such deep feelings of pain and hurt. You are in my thoughts and I am sending big hugs to you.

Starblaze, thank you for your kind words. I agree that pain is pain whether it be parents or children who are in the situation of estrangement. Each relationship is different as are the reasons for estrangement. I simply meant that the love a parent has for a child is different from the love a child has for a parent. Of course, that is a gross generalisation, but I believe that our job as parents is to love our DC unconditionally, to protect, to cherish and to help them to become independent adults. And that is what DC are entitled to expect. I am sure that we all get things wrong sometimes, but as long as there is love, hopefully, however many bumps in the road, the love will eventually overcome the obstacles.

It is complicated, as human relationships always are, and especially between parent and child. We are part of each other but also separate. It sounds as though you are making excellent progress in becoming the independent adult you are and were meant to be. You don’t need your mother’s approval, you know. It seems to me that you are becoming the adult in this relationship and, in this realisation, you may choose to be kind to her. I agree with Smileless that I feel a bit sorry for her in that she has lost so much even if she has brought it on herself. Sending positive thoughts and

I understand Dolcelatte it must be hard for any of the good mothers here to understand. Especially when you know how it feels to be cut off and wouldn't wish that pain on anyone. My NM just isn't in the same ball park. I know her so well and I know any time I tried to protect myself in the past, it just got worse. Just imagine an abusive person who you finally got away from and made them look bad to others by doing so. Imagine the punishment and revenge they would heap on you if you came back. Especially as I would have to go back from a place of utter forgiveness with no expectation of an apology or a promise to change. I'd have to make myself totally vulnerable. My kids do not want to know her either so I have no reason to do it for their sake. She gave away one daughter and drove away my stepsibling. I am the latest in a long line from a woman who just has no maternal instinct, in her own words. The only benefit to going back would be to protect whoever she chooses to bully next.

Starblaze it must be hard for EAC like you to understand why AC would want to estrange themselves from loving, caring parents and families.

"I'd have to make myself totally vulnerable"; it's horrible isn't. I feel we'd be doing the same if we ever agreed to have contact with our ES again.

Dolcelatte thank you.

Yes it is Smileless2012 from the point of view of someone who missed out on that. Knowing my NM though I have a very good understanding of the different kinds of people who make up the world. So I do have sympathy and understanding for EPs because I have also lived the heartbreak. I know that likely something does happen to break people and some parents may not be aware of that and therefor unable to fix whatever went wrong, expecially if it happens in adulthood and after children have flown the nest. Obviously no-one here is my NM so I wouldn't judge them as such and I hope no-one would look at me and project on to me their feelings toward their own estranged child. If I feel that becomes the case, this would not be a safe place for me.

Having suffered at the hands of a narcissist I have some experience of the damage they can cause, but I appreciate it's limited and insufficient to understand what it must have been like to have had a NM Starblaze.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Smileless!

I can see where that unexpected contact w/ ES' MIL must have been disturbing. IMO, both Mr. S and MIL handled it well. Ok, I think it was a little weird that she asked for a hug, but it may have been her way of trying to overcome an awkward moment or show that there are absolutely no issues between her and you two. Nice to know, as you say yourself.

And, while I'm sorry, as always, to see all the pain here, people, I think it's beautiful that AC and parents/GPs who have been hurt can reach out to each other in support and understanding, as is happening here.

It's OK, I'm doing OK. It just takes time doesn't it. It sounds like you are moving forward Smileless2012 and that's no small thing. Interestingly, I have fibromyalgia, reflux and IBS. The reduction in stress which has a huge impact on all 3 means I am healthier physically than I have been for a long time. We can move forward and have a literal new phase in our lives and be better than before

Glad you're doing better, Starblaze!

Yes it takes time Starblaze and its good to hear that your reduction of stress has had a positive effect on your physical well being.

I think we can underestimate the physical toil that emotional trauma can have on our lives, especially when we're in the thick of it, so to speak.

Sometimes its only when looking back that we can see a link.

They did both handle it well didn't they Starladyand I think you're right, asking Mr. S. for a hug was her way of demonstrating that she has no issues with us, which is nice to know.

I agree that stress can take a terrible toll on the mind and body, which is why it is so important to try to keep well, not only for ourselves but for those we love.

The pain is very raw today. I am on holiday and it’s as though now that I am relaxed and my barriers are down, all of those negative and hurt feelings are jumping on me and pummelIing me until I just want to curl up into a ball to protect myself. I feel very tired. I alternate between pathetic wallowing in self-pity - I didn’t deserve it, I wasn’t the best mum but I wasn’t the worst, I would have given my life for you, I gave my all for you, and you just throw it away - you just threw me away - and detachment. I feel numb, as though I am floating above and looking down at myself and thinking it doesn’t matter, you are just a tiny speck in the universe, you are obsessing and destroying yourself over something which in the grand scheme of things is trivial.

And another thing and another unworthy thought - do we get the children or the parents we deserve? I see estranged children on this thread and other threads, on GN and other websites, and I see their pain and I think I would have loved you, I would have been proud of you, I would have appreciated you. It’s not fair that you love and long for your parents who don’t deserve you, and yet my DD whom I love so very, very much, at the most momentous occasions in her life, just didn’t want me, that I was surplus to requirements, that she and her beautiful child would not be here if I had not given birth to her, but that doesn’t matter to her.

I have never been rejected by a man, but although I imagine that must produce very great pain and feelings of rejection, surely nothing can be worse than when the child you conceived and carried and nurtured, just doesn’t want you any more. It is like being rejected by yourself and how do you get over that?

When my children were younger, I had a teenage girl to stay with me from an orphanage in Eastern Europe, organised through a local charity = it probably wouldn’t be allowed now. She is not an orphan but was put in there by her parents, as many were. She has no relationship with her mother, she loves me, we are still in contact so many years later, now she is married with her own child. She loves me, would love to have me as her mother, says I changed her life - yet my own first=born biological child rejected me, just didn’t want or need me when her child was born.

I am writing this to stop myself from sending an angry and hurt message to my DD, which I was on the point of doing, but I know it will serve no purpose. She, on the other hand, is now sending texts and photos almost daily, and I have to will myself not to reply until I can think of something positive. And her child is gorgeous, proper heart stoppingly gorgeous, so I don’t want to do anything to spoil any future relationship with her or to give up on rebuilding the relationship with DD. But how can she cause so much pain to all of her family, not just me, but DH and her sisters and grandmother? It is such casual and careless cruelty. When she held her child in her arms and experienced that powerful, all encompassing mother love, did she not for a moment think of me or her family? Are we just surplus to requirements now she has her own family? I feel so hurt that I want to lash out, make her see what she has thrown away, discarded my love, heart and would, as though it were a mere trifle.

And now I will shut up and try to get some more sleep. Thank you for letting me vent in this safe place and wishing you all a calm and stress free day.

Stupid auto correct- meant to say ‘love, heart and soul’.

Keep them coming Dolcelatte! You know I mean this in the best sense of you offloading here with us to save you from snapping that gossamer thread of reconciliation, don’t you?

All those feelings are normal so don’t torture yourself, just let them come thick and fast. Try and see it as a parallel track running alongside the good things happening with your daughter at the moment.

You will never understand her rationale in doing what she did because you couldn’t have done it to your own parents so you’ll have to just shake your head and move on with that one, I’m afraid. There is no resolving some things no matter how much rehashing goes on - and it’s probably just you doing that isn’t it?

Hope you feel better after a good sleep, ready to start another day with good intent

Dear Dolcelatte I'm sending you a big (((HUG))).

Your post so eloquently says what we all feel and you did the right thing talking to us; I hope it helped.

It seems as if you've been hit by a Tsunami rather than a wave so rather than being wet, you're soaked and exhausted as you've tried and succeeded in keeping your feet on the ground and kept your pain, anger and frustration away from your D.

It does matter because you matter and what you have been through and are going through isn't trivial, it's huge, it's frightening and it hurts like hell.

I posted previously about how I admire you and your DH for your courage and the way you are handling this delicate and life changing situation. My admiration increased when I read your post this morning.

Your D doesn't know how you feel, how you really feel because you haven't told her and it may well be that you'll never be able to tell her.

Dare I say that this is in all probability true for your D. You don't and may never know how she truly feels. How desperately she regrets the way she's treated you.

I may be wrong, but I can't help but think that the quantity of text messages and photo's you're receiving are as if the flood gates have been opened for your D and all the things she wanted to say and share are pouring out of her. There's so much that she's kept inside that she just has to let it out, taking you out of the emotional famine you've been in and presenting you with an emotional feast.

Is it all just too much do you think? Is her enthusiasm and desire to 'make up' for the time already lost that could have been spent with her and your beautiful GD, over facing you and you're continuing to 'eat' even though you're full?

Holidays have that affect. You relax totally and only then realise that you've not been coping as well as you'd thought, that the things you thought you were coming to terms with are still so painful and distressing, that you've hardly scratched the surface.

If she cannot see what she has thrown away, that she discarded your "love, heart and soul, as though it were a mere trifle" nothing you can do or say will open her eyes, but I have a feeling that she does know.

Can you hold on to that for now, until you see her face to face?

Written messages no matter how well intended and presented can keep so much hidden but when you see her standing there before you, when you look into her eyes, you'll see what's really there, all of it and how wonderful it will be if you see her love and regret and know that it's for real.

There will be more waves before that meeting in January, some more manageable than others but each one, no matter how big and powerful will wash over you, and when they've gone, you'll be OK just as you were earlier this morning.

We're here, ready and willing to throw you a cyber life jacket if and when you need one.

Take care(((HUG)))

Thank you Pantglas and Smileless, as ever, for helping me to hang on by my finger tips and literally keeping me sane. I don’t know what I would do without you. Thank you for talking sense into me. I am feeling much calmer now but exhausted. I know it’s futile to try to change the past and it’s early days, but sometimes it just all overwhelms me.

I also know that I am lucky that DD genuinely seems to want contact, but sometimes I think that the reconciliation is almost as painful as the estrangement. It is the uncertainty that is so difficult to cope with. DD sent an adorable video of DGD with the bear and other little gifts I sent and she was clearly delighted with them. But alongside the joy of this - which I have watched endless times, I am conscious not only of what I have missed, but also the huge chasm between me and DD. I do believe and somehow know that she wants to bridge it, but my trust is shattered and sometimes I am just so scared to trust again.

But today will be a better day - one step backwards, so I now need to push forward two steps - or at least half a step anyway. It’s not a straight line but as long as the general trend is upwards, that will have to be enough for now. It’s the best it can be, I do know that.

Thank you again!!!!!

I think the hardest part of estrangement from your child, parent or sibling must be the acceptance of the unacceptable. It is something no one can be prepared for as you think they feel as you do without question. How I wish there were counsellors out there who are able help you navigate through your feelings. Dolcalette it must be so hard to trust again, because if there was a next time you fear you would crumble and the fear of that happening must be awful. In order to forgive and move on there has to be the acknowkedgement by your daughter the hurt she caused. Perhaps you could meet on neutral ground and find out why she did what she did, why she now wants contact and how you can become a family again without fear hanging over you.. As a mother herself, perhaps only now can she fully understand a mother's love and what she threw away. There is hope as her constant messaging shows, I do hope you and her resolve what's happened, you have all that love to give.
I think Smilesless, the way your husband was received by your dil's mother shows that she understands, she herself was banned from their wedding and must live in fear almost of being cut off again, she more than anyone knows what her daughter is capable of and she can't interfere or she would be out again, leaving her without her gc. It is good you and your h have a close and happy marriage. I feel for those with no one, that's why this thread is so important.

I cannot tell you how pleased I was to see your post this morning Dolcelatte. I was thinking about you all day yesterday.

I told Mr. S. about your post and situation and couldn't do so without crying. What a strange world we live in, when we can feel the pain of someone we've never met and have to live with the pain caused by our own child.

I understand your fear and I'm sure that all of us who have been estranged by our AC do. I'm going to say again how I admire your courage because I do, and because I want you to know and hopefully believe that you are courageous. That your fears are understandable and you will get bad days so please don't beat yourself up when you do.

That's what we believe too Peonyrose. I've been thinking about that hug, that she asked for it, that Mr. S. hugged her and she hugged him in return.

It's good to know that she understands and I hope that she knows that we in no way hold her responsible for what has happened.

We're so blessed to have one another and like you, I feel for those who have no one to share this terrible burden with.

Goodness what a shock smileless.
Good to hear you're still moving forward dolcelatte

Feeling rough and very weepy today. Went round to see DD yesterday and she casually mentioned that our ES has decided getting in touch with us is pointless. She said she disagreed but just shrugged. I could see things were drifting in that direction but to have it confirmed was still a huge blow.
I'm feeling really shocked because we went from our son saying he needed time and would be in touch soon, to a long period of waiting when our DD kept telling us he was improving and it would happen soon, to permanent estrangement which seems to have been fully accepted by DD and ES but I never actually got told. DD and ES are not estranged btw I meant her awareness of the situation with me.
I'm feeling in turmoil because there were so many times when I felt it would have been the right time for me to try and contact him and our DD talked me out of it because she felt he was nearly ready and I would blow it. Then suddenly we're at this point and she doesn't seem to see it as a big deal.
It's odd because on the one hand she says she doesn't hear from him much and on the other she mentioned a load of stuff she knows about and the fact that he's giving her a small monthly allowance to help her out. (he is much better off financially)
He did always insist she keeps things secret but I don't know if the odd snippets she has dropped have been what she thought were ok or if he wanted odd things dropping.
I don't suppose thinking about it will make a difference but I do feel sort of betrayed but I really don't think she has done so deliberately in any way.
And I'm just so shocked and sad that it really does seem like it will be permanent and he never even told me.

Oh hugshelp I'm so sorry.

oooh it makes me sothe way some AC treat their parents. TBH and not wishing to cause offence, I don't think it was right for your DD to pass that on to you.

She should have told her brother to tell you and kept it to herself unless you asked her directly. He could have put it in writing if he didn't feel able to 'phone or tell you face to face.

It's not dis similar to our situation with ES and DS. DS told us for sometime that his brother just needed some time and space and the he was sure he would eventually contact us, but of course he never did, apart from that awful meet up with Mr. S., and that was just to vent his anger and lies.

DS would drop "odd snippets" and I don't know about you, but for me that just made it worse. He doesn't do so now because I told him not too but occasionally says things to his dad, who then eventually tells me because he can't keep it to himself, even though he knows I don't want to know.

It's difficult for your DD as it is for our DS but I hope for your sake, if it's what you want, that she doesn't pass on any future news or information.

You're bound to be shocked. You can't begin to imagine there will be a permanent estrangement and when you know that's how things are, it's still impossible to get your head around.

Try not to look back at what you believe were missed opportunities. Now your son has told his sister he doesn't he thinks contacting you is pointless, perhaps if you hadn't listened to your D and contacted him, it wouldn't have made any difference.

and a big (((hug))) x

sorry, that should have said ' now your son has told his sister he thinks contacting you is pointless'.

Thank you Peony, Smileless and hugs for your understanding and compassion. Perhaps Pantglas and my DH were right - some things can never be understood so useless to try. I have spent the morning site seeing as we are on holiday, including an hour and a half in an art gallery which was good as I could pretend to be absorbed in the paintings, when I just wanted to go to my room and cry.

Hugs, I am so, so sorry at this latest development. What a disappointment and a kick in the teeth. I understand why you feel betrayed, especially as your DD is receiving money from your DS. Her loyalties must feel very divided but I suspect that she will be reporting back to DS, albeit unintentionally, just as she is telling you things, so maybe you need to be a little careful in what you say. Even if she doesn’t mean to pass on information, he will pick up snippets, as you have. I sometimes think it is a power game with them - they probably spend too much time watching Game of Thrones!

What a horrible situation. My heart goes out to you. I suppose there is a positive in that the siblings are close, but it must also make it harder - to hear things about your AC second hand instead of directly from him.

But permanent doesn’t necessarily mean permanent in these situations, although I don’t want to urge false hopes. Many estrangements end in reconciliation, but all we can do is soldier on from day to day, and try not to let them spoil our lives. It’s the advice which we give to each other and which I try to follow, but sometimes it’s bloody hard, isn’t it?

Sending lots and lots of hugs and good wishes

sorry, I meant ‘sightseeing’ - stupid autocorrect again!

Hugs, is someone with you today in real life to take care of you?