AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

I agree Smileless that such things have been said re EPs.

I also agree with Starblaze that other inappropriate comments have been made about EACs

Neither is helpful in my view

It's a shame Madgran that mutual respect and understanding cannot be shown but I don't think it ever will be.

We can only continue to challenge what we find unacceptable.

It just becomes more and more apparent from every situation I have come across that you cant explain behaviour that's abusive to abusive people or enablers or make them stop... Ive never seen that go successfully.

Instead what you seem to get is, "I am going to carry on doing bad behaviour because you did this last year/last month/last week and I don't care if it wasn't aimed at me or deliberate or you were 5 at the time. I am the most special and important and everything revolves around me and my feelings and that's justification for me abusing you. Also by the way you are getting the blame for all the other bad things that happened to me too so I can feel better as I've decided you deserve it and I'm always right because I'm wonderful".

Scapegoat as a term appeared for this exact purpose. It is blaming, shaming and abusing someone who doesn't deserve it.

With an abusive personality, everything you say/do can be twisted and used against you.

No contact which is a term primarily used in my experience by abused adult children is the best answer, if not always easy or achievable. Especially when people like my mum refuse to respect the fact that their children don't want a single thing to do with them and continue to stalk and harass them instead of letting them move on with their lives and be happy.

If there was a way to reason with abusive people I would have wonderful relationships with everyone. My children would have more grandparents and life would be perfect. As it is, I'm learning to move past it and be happy and I sincerely wish that for every abused child out there.

rosecarmel

I'm not going to agree with something because someone told me I had to-

I get that people have been say the agree to disagree thing since? And that people will continue to-

But I dont have to-

Why?

Because at some point I might change my mind about something and see things differently- It leaves room for the mind to be open and not locked into a particular view -- because I was told to-

Makes perfect sense to me break from conversational cliches-

This!

Exactly!

If I went around saying "I don't agree with you!" it would leave no room for me to truly listen to them, understand why they feel that way or ever grow and change because I'd made a strong statement it would be hard to back down from.

The problem isn't disagreeing, everyone disagrees and that's fine. The problem is not listening/understanding and shutting others down. That's not discussion its one-upmanship.

In a real discussion there is room for everyone's thoughts and feelings without turning it into an argument and making it personal.

Holyhannah my husband and I also don't agree on everything and we never say "I disagree with you or this specific statement" because it is personal.

Instead we ask for clarification of what was meant, or ask why the other person feels that way and practise listening and understanding.

We have learned that actually listening to the other person makes them more inclined to listen to us and that makes us both feel heard and understood even if we still don't agree at the end of it.

It also completely avoids misunderstandings and our children thinking one of us has a strong view that upset the other by the others reaction only.

Again abusive people would very deliberately run with their opinion of what you meant instead of allowing you room to explain. This is deliberate to make you look bad. That's the element/similarity to my childhood that causes me issues. Not disagreeing. I am fortunate to be married to a man that understands that.

I think you are right Starblaze that if people don't want to understand/change theit view then any explanation won't get through. They may just not agree from their perspective anyway.

Your explanation to me earlier did make sense to me and I hope that my acknowledgement of what you were saying about your perspective was appropriate. I hope my explanation of why I think aspects can be a problem on a public forum was also appropriate, in giving my perspective.

Again abusive people would very deliberately run with their opinion of what you meant instead of allowing you room to explain. This is deliberate to make you look bad. That's the element/similarity to my childhood that causes me issues. Not disagreeing.

Now that is an interesting point Starblaze. I suppose some would do it because they truly dont know they have misunderstood what is being said, whereas others it may well be deliberate.

I'm going to ponder on what you have said re openings to get further explanation ...I can certainly see potential in that on a public forum, to try to stop problems that arise. ?

Realistically, we cannot expect everyone to agree with everything we say or do and if people don't want too or are unable to change their point of view, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing so because they are trying to shut another person down.

Mr. S. and I don't agree on everything from politics to one another's taste in music (although that has got better after more than 40 years) and what we prefer to watch on TV.

It would for us be a very strange relationship if we had to be less than honest one another about anything.

IMO if people are made to feel that they cannot express any disagreement, that is shutting them down.

Thank you for listening Madgran

I suppose it really depends if someone wants to have a good relationship with you or wants to repeat behaviour they know puts you off them. Or of course repeat behaviour they know upsets you that is easily avoidable..

Disagreeing will always be fine, it's just making it personal in a shared space, not leaving room for clarifications and not actually caring about why the other person holds that opinion or the rest of what they had to say that is the problem.

Obviously though, when I see you discuss serious issues like racism, I see you do it calmly and politely because you have obviously learnt consciously or subconsciously that people do not change their minds or see your point of view when you are aggressive or dismissive of them as people.

Some people are too closed minded, too judgemental, too determined to be right and don't have any give or take in their communication though and are best avoided.

Thanks Starblaze

I think on forums people aren't always thinking about having a relationship with other posters; they just like chatting and debating. Still, in any relationships, if one feels that someone is deliberately trying to do things that upset you, always best to walk away in my view.

Can I ask..when you say "making it personal in a shared space" ..I am not sure I understand what you mean there, as I am struggling to think of an example of how that would come about? (Well, other than directly calling someone names or something I suppose). Could you clarify for me please?

I try to discuss all issues on the forum calmly and politely, whether serious or amusing or whatever. I suppose we all have to be very aware of how easily things can come over to a reader of one's post as something different to what one meant. I remember using the word "issue" in a thread a while ago ...it is a word I use a lot if summarising key points ...I followed it up by asking a poster if they could explain their point please. I was told in no uncertain terms that no "point" was being made, that no "issue" was being referred to, they were just commenting. I was totally confused, and then had to explain that both of those are just words that I use, but that maybe they can be read as aggressive from another posters perspective, which was not my intention! Oh dear!!

I would be interested to hear whether you feel there is any validity in anything that I have said in my earlier posts, when explaining my perspective. I don't mind if you disagree with me on anything. I am really interested in the idea that saying "I don't agree with you" is potentially seen as a statement that cannot be backed down from. I see it as clarifying that my viewpoint is different, and I would hope that someone would tell me why they think what they think, listen to why I think what I think and from that either move towards each other in viewpoint or eventually accept that on that issue at the moment there is no agreement. It really demonstrates what a minefield this is on forums, as opposed to "real life" where a conversation is more free flowing , there is actual human contact and other signals to read if face to face.

Anyway, interesting discussion and hopefully others will also find food for thought on communicating on forums, from both your comments and viewpoints and mine, despite them differing in some areas.

Madgran i have read it all, and listened but the most important part of my points isn't normal people in normal discussion and normal not agreeing.

There's a big difference between opinion and fact, I think that's what most people don't get. A lot of threads you see people saying someone should not be upset by something... It doesn't change the fact that they are.

Of course there are self made victims out there who do pretend to be upset to get attention or a rise out of you but if they are twisting your words and not letting you clarify or not believing you when you do clarify to achieve that. Well that's just another type of bullying.

I dislike being bullied and my unfortunate childhood/adulthood and the professional help and support I was given to identify and undo the damage of abuse makes it very easy for me to see when it is happening.

I came here to make connections with people, not to just shove my opinion out there... I do not think my opinions of huge importance and they change often anyway.

I have made connections with people here so if it is supposed to be a forum for debate and argument only, I still came to the right place.

I just wanted this thread to be a place of connection and helpful resources for others like me and I am still surprised that it hasn't always been used for that purpose.

The support thread is always kind and supportive because the mostly EPs that post there work very hard to keep it that way no matter what gets said.

Shame child abuse victims weren't deserving of the same respect eh?

I agree it is possible to make connections on a forum; still a bit of a minefield though in communication at times. ? Some do want to make connections, some just want to chat/debate, it's not really an either/or just different motivations maybe, and for some probably both.

Yes there is a difference between opinion and fact. Yes I have seen people saying that someone should not be upset by something...I think you were giving that as an example of making things personal? It doesnt change the fact that someone is feeling upset, but another person saying it's not worth being upset or it's a waste of energy to be upset, is presenting an opinion that might help someone to re-evaluate their feelings ...noone likes to be upset, so that might be a good thing if they hear that others are not or don't think its worth being upset about? I don't know.

On the "support" thread I have over time seen some horribly unkind and bullying comments, less so in the last year or so which is positive. "Resources" tend not to be posted there. On this thread I often think that the resources can provoke very strong feelings for people with so many extremes of experience. Ofcourse noone has to look at them or read them but inevitably when people are looking for information or trying to make sense of the painful situation in which they find them selves they might well look for possible alternative perspectives. Then when they see/hear/read something that triggers their own feelings of upset and pain or that they feel invalidated their own truth, then they want to talk about that, whether EP or EAC. I suppose when an EAC and an EP are talking there is always that potential tension regarding each others experiences and "story" of estrangement. If one persons experience/perspective doesnt match another's "truth" , and generalised statements are used that by default can invalidate a persons experience, then this tends to regularly cause upset and arguments, outrage, anger, accusations, misunderstandings etc. not just on this thread. Its a pity.

I have seen many posts affording respect to EAC and to EPs as individuals...and also some that do the opposite. Much of the above that I describe leads to that, would be my observation.

I dont know what the answer is but it is good to discuss it and share views constructively. ?

I don't know what the answer is but it is good to discuss it and share views constructively

That is the answer Madgran to have constructive discussions which as this is an open forum, should be inclusive.

I get it all in general terms Madgran

We are all individual though...

I'm constantly told I need to do xyz to not hurt feelings and push buttons so I make that effort. Yet, it isn't ever good enough and I don't get the same respect back. Specifically from the people demanding perfect line towing.

I don't even get back what they specifically demand...

Anyway, I think I have definitely run out of speech about it and it's making me feel like a total self absorbed idiot to be using I and me so much and it does remind me (rightly or wrongly) of how hard I tried to have a good relationship with my mum. Which is probably one of those side effects you mention of having estranged children and estranged parents in the same place.

I wonder if part of me genuinely thought that if estranged parents liked me and thought I was OK, that would make me feel better about my mum.

Going to need to think about that one

I'll leave you to your thinking

It'll have to wait because i have an AC moving out and I'm having literally all the feelings, many of which no one ever had about me so I'm not sure if they are normal or over the top. I'm going to miss them so much, we are very alike, it's like seeing the version of me who was loved and supported. Seriously if everything terrible that happened to me in life were the steps I had to take to bring these amazing humans into existence I don't regret a second of it.

Exciting times for them and changes for you. I remember it well.

This is why I am online more lately so I'm not flapping about him being overly helpful and annoying. Thank goodness work starts again Thursday where flapping about being helpful is a big part of the job discription

Several years ago there was quite a bit of discussion regarding button pushing, triggers and coddling-

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

What exactly is consideration? How much must a person censor themselves for the well-being of another before they themselves lose their well-being because they've no choice other than to internalize their own thoughts and feelings?

Another take was "no button pushing, no growth"- In other words, relationships wouldn't stand a chance if there were zero triggers and buttons to be pushed-

Or in other, other words, relationships would take no work-

The real issue I have in trying to have a rational debate at times, is the insistence by some people to re-write known clinical meanings/definitions and replacing them with what they think/believe they mean or want them to mean. It is impossible to have a rational discussion with anyone who insists that what they believe supersedes the clinical terms.

Just like some that insist No Contact is abuse. Anyone is free to feel that they are being abused by someone going No Contact with them, but by calling NC abuse it literally makes EVERY EAC into an abuser.

An EP is free to feel that No Contact = 'the silent treatment' which IS abuse and has a separate meaning, but that doesn't make it SO/factual.

Maybe the person doing the NC is abusive but the act itself is not abuse. Abuse cannot occur without proximity/contact.

Someone can be hurt/mentally anguished by being cut-off/NC'd but personal feelings don't alter reality OR change the definition of "abuse" which does not include No Contact. No one would ever say that a man is abusing a woman after a divorce, even if he initiated it and she didn't want the divorce, if he is not in contact with her. If an AC goes NC with an ADULT 'parent' the same applies.

I don't care if someone doesn't 'like' or want to agree with Me but if a person cannot even accept facts/evidence/reality like the Earth is round, then there is zero point in further 'discussion'.

People are free to believe that my 'mom' could not be diagnosed as a Narcissist based on the damage done to Me. That belief doesn't alter my reality so I politely disagree and move on. IF it makes someone feel 'better' to deny my reality/truth, that's not my issue and why should anyone care to attack that truth? What about 'that' is threatening to others?

What is the need/desire for No Contact to BE "abuse" for some? The answer is pretty simple from my POV. If No Contact doesn't 'count' as "abuse" some people are not being abused and their victim mentality would go up in smoke, just like in my own family's cases.

Nobody is going to "feel sorry" for an adult 'parent' who came by their NC because of their own behavior. NC AC certainly are not, especially when the vast majority of NC AC came from abuse. The other reason EAC are unlikely to feel sorry for EP's is due to the near constant invalidation. Like the miss-using/rewriting of established terminology. Or the other general labels that many EP's tack onto their AC. Ungrateful, lacking in mental maturity, over-sensitive, mentally ill (my fave), deficient, not as descent/moral as they are etc.

And then, when all else to make AC (especially NC AC) look like the 'bad guy' fails, is to call what We had to do to SURVIVE like joining a cult or that WE have a "cult mentality". Yeah, now THERE is a true insult.

Dysfunctional 'families' that are lead by a Narcissistic abuser ARE "THE CULT". Getting 'out'/going No Contact is like the deprogramming FROM a CULT. You have to unlearn everything that You were taught by 'the cult' that was sold as 'normal'/truth. So abusers just LOVE the idea. They, by being NC'd are the 'victim' of a cult. Cue the sympathy and as a 'bonus'? More victim blaming/shaming toward people like Me.

I am going to carry on doing bad behaviour because you did this last year/last month/last week and I don't care if it wasn't aimed at me or deliberate or you were 5 at the time

This really resounded with me. In talking to my parents and saying that we just couldn't have take their nastiness anymore my mum said 'when went to the zoo (2 years ago), dad asked 'husband' if he could push the pram 3 times and he kept saying no! He is so controlling'

Um what? A father can push his own kids around if he wants and hubby never gets to (always working). My dad would never let me push the kids around, always take the pram off me. It was such a non-relevant non-issue.

rosecarmel I didn't make it through the whole thing but honestly, I did try.

The way I look at it is, there will always be extremes.

Sometimes there has to be extremes for people to notice or listen.

I imagine most men and women back in the day who were living in a society they knew and understood thought women marching for equality and burning their bras was extreme behaviour. Now we are all thankful for it.

Would text that includes racism or rape be a trigger if people out there were not experiencing rape or racism right now? Probably not.

I suppose at the end of the day, newer generations will do what every generation has done, shape the world a bit more the way they like it and Its only older generations moaning about it instead of listenning and understanding that holds it back.

Creating a world where people are equal, people do not experience abuse, racism, rape etc is actually a wonderful thing. Absolute freedom of expression will be back when we know people's opinions aren't a sign there is sinister intention underneath.. Like the boy in my class growing up who made jokes about women and "their place" and how they were all (bad words) who everyone laughed at, even the girls because he was charismatic and had presence.... Guess what he went to prison for.

Estrangement is a single action- It happens once, and then it's done-

However, any trauma it causes can be ongoing-

And when traumatized, the triggering event/s mentally reoccur- Again and again- In ones mind- But not in reality-

The ongoing, punishing emotions experienced are real, even though the event/s that caused them are long past-

And those feelings can and do feel like abuse but they are not- They're a result of trauma-

Because in reality, there is no contact- And if there's no contact, abuse cannot occur-

Hokyhannah

I just want an equal footing.. I said "good relationships aren't easily broken by third parties* about a situation which was not an abusive husband or wife coercing their partner away... No it was an abusive ex husband lying to siblings of an ex wife. People who weren't in love, weren't living together, weren't subjected to his abuse.... Yet they were still easily persuaded that lies were true. It was easy because they obviously wanted to think that in that particular scenario.

Abusers do not easily break good relation ships, they have to work extremely hard to do it.

Yet I was bad for saying that in that particular situation.

Yet as you say, people can say No Contact is abuse and send the message to every estranged child out there that they are abusive and that's OK?

Other terms or words like silent treatment which is abuse are available but we can't have the term that as far as I am aware was invented to discribe cutting off abusive people in the first place?

Yet, hi! Here I am, definitely the bad guy here right? lol

How much must a person censor themselves for the well-being of another before they themselves lose their well-being because they've no choice other than to internalize their own thoughts and feelings?

A good question rosecarmel. There is a potentially fine line between consideration and suppression of oneself in relationships.

I do also think that consideration has different versions according to the relationship or the means of communication but that is another whole discussion.