Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

Yennifer, is anyone exempt?

I know what you mean 3nanny it is like we're already dead isn't it, and for those of us who have GC we've not seen since they were babies or have never seen, it's as if we never existed.

I don't think anyone is exempt rosecarmel.

Thanks Summerlove. No rosecarmel, it plays out all across gransnet and pretty much everywhere you go on the Internet and even in person sadly, no safe spaces for anyone accept the ones you can choose who attends x I guess it's not healthy to stay in your own bubble really either though x

www.dana.org/article/wounds-that-time-wont-heal/

HolyHannah I haven't finished that yet and it's already given me a lot to think about. When I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia the rheumatologist asked me if I had experienced any childhood trauma. He was very interested that it could be linked to chronic pain. There's so much to know and understand x

Common theme -- Blaming other people for bad behaviors... Every victim of abuse has heard the, "You made me do 'it'." justification.

"If you hadn't have been walking alone You wouldn't have been mugged." No -- A lone person will not be mugged if the attacker doesn't perpetrate the crime.

"You wouldn't have been raped if you weren't wearing such revealing clothing." No -- A woman is raped because because the perpetrator was a rapist.

"I wouldn't have yelled and screamed and hit you if you just behaved 'better'/hadn't said..." No -- If you act like an adult and take responsibility for your actions/behaviors you would know that yelling and screaming and hitting is not an appropriate way to resolve conflict.

Nobody MAKES anyone DO anything. Actions and behaviors and responses are CHOICES. How one chooses to respond is on that person.

*I think that maybe here on GN there should be two Estrangement threads, one for Estranged Grans and Grandpas, and one for Estranged Adult Children?
We are never all going to agree, but trying to get support from the different sides of Estrangement is like barking up the wrong tree. Doomed possibly to failure and potentially more hurt.*

I understand your point SparklyGranny. However I do think it is beneficial for people who are estranged within different contexts to talk to each other. There have been some good discussions between EAC , EPS, EGPS all acknowledging the pain of estrangement. There have also been disagreements between ACs, between EPs and between EGPs. So it's less about the context or "group", in my view, more about the common experience of estrangement overall and a recognition that we each have a story, and acceptance of that.

Whilst doing that ofcourse the way we all express ourselves makes a big difference to how the disussion goes. Avoiding generalised statements about any group without acknowledging that any references to particular behaviours etc are not meant to suggest that ALL members of the group behave like that, is a start. Referencing a reply to a particular post also helps (putting a * at each end of a poster name or quote ) so that all posters know whether a comment is linked to them or not.

Also I think it is really important that when reading and contributing, we consider our own emotional responses to what is said. Past experiences can influence how we respond to posts cant they. That's not to invalidate our individual responses or feelings but it can help in thinking carefully about what is meant, about others perspectives etc.I certainly review my own emotional responses in many contexts, including on GN, and find it really helpful for myself and also in relationships, in life or on line

Assertiveness without unkindness Madgran77 x

How many demonstrations/examples/truths must be cited before My/Our reality is seen?

I can't answer that question HolyHannah and wouldn't presume to. I suppose my overall response though would be that valid examples can be found to demonstrate each persons reality and experience. Those examples may or may not make another person with different experiences and contexts "see" your own reality/experience! Those examples also may or may not be a trigger for other linked to their own personal experiences.

Maybe we can never "prove" our reality to someone else to make them "see" it. I feel that about someone in my life who seems completely determined to make everything that I do fit their expectation of what they think/believe that I mean or what they think/believe I will do/have done ...all their behaviours are linked I know to their own past experiences but it is hard for me and I have now given up( after years of making massive effort), trying to make them "see" my truth/reality

Two great posts Madgran

I don't think anyone could read A child called it and not understand that mothers can be abusive. I never thought I could ever be thankful for my childhood and my childhood was so unhappy. I don't think I would ever recommend this book to anyone, especially not an EC, it would feel like saying that they should just get over it because look how bad it could be. I am struggling not to have that attitude towards myself right now. Even with the memory of being pulled out of school and moved and the physical stuff basically stopping afterwards, the emotional abuse hurt too and you can't rely on people to see those scars and protect you. I love him as a child and his stubborn determination to survive, I'm stubborn too and I'm learning its a positive quality x

Where I lived in a southern state, there weren't enough social workers to intake child abuse cases in a timely manner- The service was stretched to its limit-

So they turned to a local newspaper and the newspaper kept stories pertaining to child abuse on the front page until more social workers were in place to cover all the cases-

The coordinated efforts of the paper and the social service produced positive results- It was compassion in action, they shared the same goal, they understood each other-

Understanding is the key-

Had a big shake up here too rosecarmel when a couple of awful cases hit the news. Now people can't move doctors or hospitals or schools to hide abuse, all are connected, records are kept central not in individual places and all communicate with each other x

Well said Madgran

"Those examples also may or may not be a trigger for other linked to their own personal experiences."

Yes, Madgran- I wholeheartedly agree-

3nanny6 Mon 17-Feb-20 11:43:54 - Never thought of it like that, but you are spot on, our once beloved daughters have buried us and buried us from our beloved grandchildren too!

Yes Yogagirl and although we are told just move forward and I fully respect just how hard Smiless2012 and her dear husband have worked in rebuilding their lives sometimes I do feel that our beloved daughters have buried us and buried us from the lives of beloved grand-children and moving forward is only by painful steps taken so slowly and wondering if indeed we can move forward.

Yennifer please do not go on about the book "A child called It" As for pointing out that it would just be like saying just get over it because look how bad it could be. How do you know the strengths and weaknesses of all E.A.C.s mental capacity? You constantly say you like G.N. as you feel comfortable here but when someone tries to have some understanding of you and show some awareness in regard of your past you seem to then want to disregard them. Someone wrote about their life and it was a best seller that does not mean you should feel Oh well my life was not that bad after all, just take it for what is was A Bloody Book do you have to over think everything and analyse it, I am losing patience a little bit so before I go any further I will shut up.
I HAVE LOST MY GRAND-CHILDREN I MISS THEM EVERYDAY AND HAVE TO LIVE MY LIFE WITHOUT THEM WISHING I COULD HUG THEM AND TALK TO THEM AND LOOK INTO THEIR LITTLE FACES AND TREASURE EVERY MOMENT I HAVE ON THIS EARTH STILL BREATHING AND LET THEM KNOW I LOVE THEM AND ALWAYS WILL SO IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THAT BOOK THEN JOG ON AND READ SOMETHING ELSE.

3nanny I'd never really thought of it like that before, until I read your earlier post. It is as if we've died and been buried, and unceremoniously too.

As you say it is a slow and painful journey and I remember how often the day after having taken one small step forward I'd take one step back, leaving me where I'd started but I realised when I looked back that was OK. I was no further on but I hadn't gone backwards either.

Well that was unexpected. I've said before that I admin a large group of ECs (which also means I don't feel able to get support there as I'm in a responsible position) I was just thinking aloud that I won't share with them x

3nanny6, I’m sorry that you’re obviously in such pain, however, shouting at another member surely isn’t the best way forward?

You have, however, actually just proved Yennifers point about being shut down. You’ve just told her not to focus on the book, and that you have more important pain to worry about, so she should get over it.

Unless I’ve read that completely wrong?

I'm sorry too because I can feel the pain in those words. I just read a book I was recommended and gave my thoughts on it. I wasn't meaning to do anything wrong here. I think he's amazing, I'm about half way through and I will probably finish the series x

My neighbour has just popped in for a cup of tea; a rare event and so I kind of knew that something must be troubling her. She's told me today that her DIL, who is from another country, has told her that she doesn't want my neighbour to have as much to do with DGS from now on because "she wants the child to be brought up in her country's culture, not English". She last saw her DGS at Christmas, for 2 days, and she said that everything seemed fine at that time and she has no idea what has happened in the meantime to cause this turn of events. Needless to say, my neighbour is utterly heartbroken and, because they live at the opposite end of the country, it's not possible for her to go and try to resolve it face to face. Her DS is "keeping out of it", possibly because he fears that he may lose his DS if his wife decides to leave the country.
To not know what crime she's committed, what heinous act she unwittingly carried out, and to have no way to try to rectify it, is breaking her. I thought of those of you who are in a very similar situation. I've witnessed it from the "other side", up close and personal today and I'm very sorry for you all that are suffering.

Smileless2012 Thank-you for the post and yes sometimes the dying and already buried is awful to think about.

It is a painful journey and some days can be better than others. I too measure it in one step forward and one step back only sometimes I have one step forward and then get two steps back and just start that painful journey all over again.
I think today gave me the push back because a worker from
Early Years called my phone and wanted to speak to my daughter. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago a council official came to my house looking for my daughter also.
As I have had the same land-line for years my number will always be on file as I used to be the next of kin (not too sure whose number she gives these days) I did engage in conversation today and told a little bit about the fact I have no contact with my daughter at the moment and asked them to please try and update all new addresses and phone numbers for my daughter as she has not lived with me for a long time. The Early Years are Childrens Services but not (Social Services) and the woman told me they had been asked about offering my daughter some support in regard of the youngest child she seemed nice and she said that perhaps some time in the future my daughter may have a change of mind about me. So it was a positive thing that my daughter may be getting support but it just feels sad to hear that my daughter is still struggling but has excluded me from being of any help to her.
One thing I do try to send the smileys in messages but for some reason my computer does not do them. In that case just know flowers have been sent.

Summerlove ; you may have misunderstood but Yennifer put on a post please go back and read it and she points out that the book could make an estranged adult child feel like their life is not as bad as the author who was a child who indeed had suffered horrific child abuse. I was the person that told Yennifer about the book and I told her that it a was very dark read and later I told her that if it would be too overwhelming for her then do not read it.
However she is still going on about the book and no I did not shut her down if the book is too much then she has not got to read it. I have tried on many threads to have empathy towards Yennifer I am willing to acknowledge her pain and sometimes some of us are also feeling the enormity of our own pain.