Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

In the particular context of that article, about the difficulties that estranged students suffer, how their parents may or may not be feeling is not relevant. It's not what the article is about.

Highlighting the view of a specific EP posting on a different website, when putting this link on this thread that was started because as you say Holy Hannah ...*I started this thread as a place to post such links so that those who identify as EAC can read and hopefully learn that when being gas-lighted, that the truth is out there.* ...I'm unclear about the relevance of that individual EP view either!!

Wow. From an EAC I can tell you that I tried everything to stop us being estranged.
Unfortunately my mother cannot have a discussion where she admits she may be wrong.
Instead she attacks verbally and this time I had finally had enough.
Had enough of being put down about my job, hair, weight, house, driving, parenting, disability etc., etc.
I have a sibling who still lives at home (he's in his 40s). He doesn't work, controls their money, has all their bank details, Steals from them regularly, lies, doesn’t wash and yet despite this excuses are made for him.
So before putting all the blame on the children, perhaps be in the shoes of one who was told that it was no wonder her DD had a mental illness with a mother such as she.
I still speak to my dad. I love him and my mum dearly but sadly cannot take any more put downs from my mum.

My SIL do not speak to their difficulties with mums, but it is obvious the pain is deep and the mums attitudes hurt them. The moms HURT them.

Mimidl I'm not sure if you are commenting on the article or in response to my comment? The article certainly highlights the difficulties for estranged students and describes a lot of what an estranged student that I am supporting is going through. The system tends to work against them sadly, but it's good that further education institutions are extending their support models etc as described.

It sounds like you are best out of your clearly unhappy and very difficult family situation. I am sure it must be hard for you though when you still love your mum and dad

Oh, HolyHannah, the article about estranged students is heart-rending! I had no idea so many were CO from the families while still in university.

Yennifer, I agree w/ others that you should ignore the critical comments of strangers who don't know or understand your situation. Some people have an idealized view of what "family" is supposed to be like and just can't get their minds around anything else.

Mimid, I'm so sorry about your mum. I think it's normal for someone to strike back if they feel they're being attacked, though, and that may be what your mum tends to do. That doesn't make it any kess difficult for your, of course, I'm just sorry she can't find it in her to really listen, hear what you're feeling, and acknowledge where she made mistakes, and, maybe apologize for them. I think you were wise to pull away from her. Glad you can still connect w/ your dad.

Also, Yennifer, I agree that Xmas can make all this harder, just as it does for many of the EGPs here. Would it help if you and your family unit went away during the holiday season? That would give you all something more to look forward to and perhaps fill whatever void you're feeling a little bit?

@Madgran No, I was commenting on the OP rather than your comment x

I just find it incredible that the OP will ALWAYS be on the side of the EP/EGP.

Over Christmas I made an effort, letting my youngest (she’s 14) stay with my parents on Christmas Eve so they were with her Christmas morning.
I also bought a gift for my mum from myself and my partner. I made it clear that this would be ‘baby steps’ but my mum is now calling daily and has even suggested us all spending next Christmas abroad - together in the same house!!! ?‍♀️

@starlady thank you for your kind words. I do know my mum has a low self esteem/confidence and I try hard not to criticise her so that I don't hurt her feeling's.

My heart goes out to other estranged children this Christmas, because its an incredibly hard time of year to be apart from your family.

Mimidl thanks for replying.

You are very generous in letting your daughter choose to stay etc. Sounds like your mum is "all or nothing" ,
doesnt get "baby steps" and sadly is not listening. Such relationships are so hard x

Mimidl -- This is why I started this thread. I wanted it to be an illustration of the attitudes that some EP's demonstrate that EAC know to be true but get gas-lighted over for one reason or another.

"So before putting all the blame on the children, perhaps be in the shoes of one who was told that it was no wonder her DD had a mental illness with a mother such as she." -- This is Me and many of Us.

When I got "proper help" and was told I was/am "mentally ill/damaged". I almost screamed, "What's the matter/wrong with Me???" My Doctor -- "Not 'much' other then you've been told/convinced that there IS something 'wrong' with YOU from day one."

"I just find it incredible that the OP will ALWAYS be on the side of the EP/EGP." -- And yet when that statement was made? The only 'side' that said anything were those that identify as EAC. Total crickets from other Estranged Parents/Grands...

That's incorrect HolyHannah I responded to the statement about the OP always being on the side of EP/EGP in my first post on the first page of this thread.

I don't know what you mean by "total crickets from other Estranged Parents/Grands ...." but I get the distinct impression it's less than complimentary.

Crickets - sound of silence. In woodland areas during the still of the night, all that can be heard is the sound of crickets chirping.

I've been looking at a lot of EP places and I am so horrified by a lot of the language used there. Every time someone says "Selfish brats" it makes my toes curl. A lot of them couldn't have thought much of their AC anyway. I hope that's alright to say here as I haven't seen anyone here say that. It just feels that a lot of EPs in the public eye seem to think their children are oh so entitled when all their children wanted was to be respected as adults x

Thanks Norah.

I know what you mean Yennifer, that's one of the reasons I stopped going on a site for EP's/EGP I frequented quite a lot to begin with. People going around in ever decreasing circles of anger, frustration and bitterness. It doesn't help them to move on.

It was that or so much re living of the pain and heartache that it was impossible to find anything positive and/or helpful so it became rather depressing in the end.

I felt sorry for so many who just seemed to be stuck, some had estranged for many years and were no further forward than when it first began.

There is this general feeling of "I was a great mother" and I don't feel like there is such a thing as a perfect mother so it just makes me uncomfortable. I feel like I would be tried and executed if I stepped foot there!

We all have to keep moving forward, you are right Smileless2012. Just make each other more angry and miserable in some of those places.

I've felt that way too Yennifer when I've looked at sites for EAC although it's some time since I've done so, which is why I never made a contribution.

It's a shame when you feel you have something useful and potentially helpful to add but feel it wouldn't be welcomed.

That's the good thing about GN; EAC, EP's/EGP's and those who aren't living with estrangement are able to contribute.

The group I am in has a lot of rules, EPs are not allowed but join sometimes to say nasty things. Its a private group as well. The members are generally very friendly and they don't talk the same way EPs do on the places I looked at. It's very much more hurt and needing reassurance than anger. Lots and lots of positive posts too when they overcome problems given to them by childhood abuse. I think there are an awful lot more truly abusive parents out there than anyone wants to admit. I think abusive ECs maybe don't come to our group, they don't need it, they don't find going NC hard or painful. That's why it's so awful to be told I am horrible for going NC. It's so awful and painful already. I think there is stigma for everyone in estrangement but people like the one in the video who is obviously (to me) abusive give EPs in general a bad name and adds to the stigma and prevents anyone ge uine having many reasonable balanced places to get support. I haven't ever seen an obviously abusive EC speaking for other EC in the same way if that makes sense.

I agree that there's a stigma for everyone in an estrangement situation; I'm glad that you've found a group that is both supportive and friendly.

The group I was a member of didn't have any abusive parents either, for the same reason I should think; if you're abusive and that's why you've been estranged, you're not going to need support and reassurance.

You could be right about there being "more truly abusive parents out there than anyone wants to admit" and the same could be said for abusive AC.

It's understandable that we gravitate toward those whose experiences mirror our own but that can result in a one dimensional perspective which isn't always helpful.

It is awful for you to be told you're horrible for going NC. It's awful for EP's/GP's to be told they must have done something because estrangement doesn't 'just happen' when in reality it does and has nothing to do with the relationship you had with the AC who has estranged you.

It's difficult sometimes to be able to be open to others whose experience of estrangement differs to your own; difficult but not impossible.

I only read the OP and didn't watch the video. There's a lot of anger and bitterness in the OP for sure; there's also a lot of pain and suffering too and I would think that all of those could just as easily be present in something from an EAC, depending on who wrote it.

How do you know for sure Smileless2012? I've read countless detailed stories from ECs, screen shots of abusive messages and emails, recordings of abusive phonecalls. I don't see any of that on a lot of EP places. Just generalisations and anger. So how do you truly know for sure? What made you so uncomfortable you left to come somewhere more balanced if not for the fact that no one there seemed to be getting any better? What sort of person never ever gets any better and just get stuck in an angry and bitter loop?

I've seen the same from EP's Yennifer, we were on the receiving end of abusive messages, emails and 'phone calls from our own sonthey were shocking.

We can never know for sure can we; all we can do is take what we are told as being that persons experience. The fact that the vast majority of the group members didn't seem to get any better was terribly sad, and that just got too much for me. It was preventing me from moving on and I felt so useless being unable to give so many of them some comfort and support.

Suicide attempts and others getting to the point where that was something they believed was the only solution.

I came here before I joined that group, it was about 3 years after I'd joined GN. I joined another group for EP's about the same time where there was a lot of sharing about NPD. It was I think like yours; supportive, caring and surprisingly uplifting but eventually it finished which was a shame, but I think that happens quite often when they seem to have run their course.

I can't answer "what sort of person never gets any better and just get stuck in an angry bitter loop?" but my heart goes out to them whether they're the EAC or EP.

That's no way to live your life is it, and those of us who have been able to find a way forward and make a life for ourselves are so fortunate aren't we.

Maybe the healthy and the unheslthy tend to find each other then because all the public EP places I found were very awful and run by people like the original woman, that would make sense x

Hopefully GN has been a more positive experience for you, a public place where EP's are doing their best to move on with their lives.

The OP certainly isn't representative of all EP's.

No I don't think that? Im sorry I'm getting really confused. Obviously a lot of EPs are abusive like mine too, Im not trying to say all EPs are abusive but a lot in the public eye obviously are and they give good EPs a bad name which I keep trying to explain so I thought good EPs would be against that too. The same way I would be against bad ECs, I just havent come across any in the public eye like the woman in the OP and her followers. These are the sorts of people that run a lot of these places I visited.

That's the thing with the 'lady' in the video. She claims not to be abusive (all the while acting completely so) and the parents that comment on her videos are not abusive either. However, when they call their and all EAC "vile appendages" and such, she happily echos -- "Amen."

So if she's not abusive and neither are those other EP/EGP's, why are they okay with such nasty and bitter vitriol against EAC being spoken? Non-abusive people should know calling anyone a "vile appendage" or "immature/spoiled brats" etc. is verbally abusive but then they claim they are not.

They are just hurt and angry. Which is a typical theme of abusers. "I'm only talking like this because my child hurt ME." Much like the mindset of, "I didn't abuse my child and if I did, it wasn't 'that bad' and if it was? They 'deserved' it."

People like that accuse some of tarring all EP's with the same brush, which is another nice deflection. I let peoples own behavior regardless of 'side' determine whether I think they are playing victim or not.

Yennifer -- I find it fascinating about PL that at one point she said something to the affect of, "Don't come in here and say, 'Well you said...' Just don't do that." Like being held accountable for what she is saying/doing is some kind of shocking/insulting concept/attack.

And oh yes... Don't we all understand the difference in deliveries. EAC will happily give point by point details, especially if they have nice direct quotes. The EP/EGP's I always suspect the most are the ones that jump up and down the loudest, with one of the many "old stories".

PL says (again paraphrased), "If you were TRULY abusive then go get help and apologize to your children BUT if you're like Me and so many of Us who were 'good' parents and don't know why you're estranged..." and "None of the parents HERE are YOUR parent!" I have to laugh a little.

Find me a web-site, link, article ANYTHING where you can find, "I abused my child and that's why I'm estranged and have no contact with my grand-children". They don't exist because abusers either don't know (The Nile is DEEP) or can't admit how their poor behavior impacts others, especially those they claim to love.

Abusive parents are clearly not rare, given the number of EAC who exist and identify as such, regardless of age etc. WE 'get' not all EP/EGP's are abusive but don't agree that "truly abusive" parents are "rare". The only people that have an interest in that being factually accurate are other abusive EP/EGP's right?