Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

I wasn't suggesting that you do think the OP is representative of all EP's Yennifer, I'm sorry if you thought that was the case, and of course I'm against anyone giving EP's a bad name.
Just as I'm against anyone giving EAC a bad name, and that is what our son has done by estranging us. In so doing, he has potentially cast a shadow of doubt over EAC who had no choice but to estrange their parents.

TBH HolyHannah whether or not you regard someone who you don't actually know as "playing the victim" is irrelevant; it's just your opinion.

The only poster I see here jumping up and down the loudest at the moment is you; why is that? Old stories, well yes if EP's are talking about their own experiences then they are old stories but that doesn't make them any the less relevant does it.

I don't provide links to sites for EP's because no longer go on them and no one knows what lies behind those examples. I do however remember some of the awful examples I came across, of the terrible way some EAC have treated their parents, and find it revealing that you never produce links of that nature.

Mr. S. and I are good parents and the only explanation we have for our estrangement is the controlling and manipulative behaviour of our ES's wife. We've never been told why by our ES, so it is appropriate for us to say, that apart from what we believe to be the reason, we don't actually know. Perhaps this section of my post will make you "laugh a little" too but I don't know why you would find anyone's estrangement even mildly amusing.

"Find me a web-site, link, article ANYTHING where you can find" 'I had good parents who loved and cared for me and gave me a good childhood because I'm married to someone who is manipulative and controlling, and didn't want my parents in our lives so kept on and on at me until I cut them out, not just out of my life but their GC's lives too'.

Find me something, ANYTHING where an EAC says they were influenced by their peers and led to believe that friendship groups were more important than family. That has been said to a recently reconciled mother by her formerly estranging adult son. You can see her post on the 'support for those living with estrangement' thread.

I don't agree that "truly abusive parents are rare" because as you say the only ones who would agree that that is the case, would be abusive. Do you believe that truly abusive AC are rare?

It seems to me that you're only interested in anything and everything that supports your view of EP's as abusive and of having no interest in, or concern for EAC.

You posted yesterday that no EP/EGP commented on the woman in the OP who said she was always on the side of EP/EGP's and referred to the EP/EGP's here as "crickets".

I pointed out that I had indeed referred to this in my first post on the first page of this thread; you've simply ignored this.

There are lots of articles like that Smileless2012. Where people were alienated from friends and family by abusive people. They don't focus on the alienation aspect, they focus on the abuse they received because it wasn't their fault so their families are understanding but they are there. Abusive parents often try to alienate their children from other family too, I've seen that talked about here. So we know it happens, everyone knows it happens. It happened to me too. You don't know its happening while still in the relationship, because you don't know you are being abused. I had an ex who alienated me from our joint friends so he could cheat on me within the friend circle. I had no clue till one friend realised what was going on and now they are my friends not his. Of course I was more open to being abused that way as I didn't understand how abusive my mother was and was used to that sort of thing as my normal.

It's all very sad isn't it. Our ES only has contact with his brother and I think that's decreasing.

All abusers try to alienate their 'victim' from family and friends, not just abusive parents. They don't want their victim to be in contact with anyone who may be able to see that there is an issue and may even articulate their fears and concerns.

Our ES and his wife tried to cause irreparable damage to our relationship with our DS, to the extent that at one point we thought we would lose him too.

During our first visit to see him in Aus. he told me that he would never do to us what his brother has done, as he's not like him. I said there had been a point when we really believed we would lose him too, he said he knew but it would never happen.

I've also seen posts from EP's who have involved other family members in their situation which is of course wrong but TBH I haven't seen anyone here saying they actively sought to alienate their EAC from family.

It's impossible for others not to be affected even if they aren't the ones who have been estranged. My m.i.l. had brief contact for a while but my own mum and brother were cut out at the same time we were.

It is of course difficult for anyone who has been estranged to know that other family members are seeing not only the AC they've lost but their GC too. That was something we struggled with, especially with our GC but as I've said it's only his brother our ES has limited contact with now.

Like you, we were unaware of what was going on behind the scenes, what was being said to our DS and our ES's friends some of whom we'd known from primary school.

Interestingly, 4 years into our estrangement some of the long term friends of our ES who had been totally ignoring us, reached out to us on FB when we moved and then when Mr. S. retired. It's also worth noting that they now have no contact with our ES.

It took them some time but eventually they realised that the fault was not ours.

Just wanted to add that them making contact occurred after they'd had their first child and I do wonder if seeing their parents' joy at being GP's made them realise what an awful thing our ES and his wife had done.

I did mention that all abusers are alienators, well, my ex is there as an example of that

Yes you did, that however was in relation to your being alienated from joint friends by your ex husband. I was commenting on your reference to "abusive parents" alienating their EAC from other family members.

You said you'd seen examples of that here on GN, do you remember where you saw this?

You didn't read the first sentence properly, I clearly said "abusive people" in general Smileless2012. I then mentioned abusive parents because that's what I have seen ECs here talk about here which shows that we are aware. I'm finding this conversation very confusing because I am feeling like I have said something wrong or haven't said the right things and i'm ending up questioning myself and having to re read my own comments. I think it's important to be careful to listen to what is being actually said in terms of the person speaking and what they have been through as priority over how it may be related to our own individual circumstances because they may not correlate. I am truly sorry for everything you have been through x

Of course you haven't said anything wrong Yennifer and I totally agree about the importance of listening to what is said and being aware that our personal experiences of estrangement differ, sometimes marginally and at others totally different when it comes to the experiences of EAC and EP's.

Thank you, I am of course sorry for all that you have been through. As a poster said previously, Chewbacca I think, whatever our experience of estrangement, there's one thing we all have in common "it bloody hurts".

Common Theme -- "My EAC is 'mentally ill'/a substance abuser/alienated by a 3rd party (spouse/bad doctor/other parent etc.)"

And when I hear an EP/EGP say these things, I believe them.

Child abuse causes many differing mental illnesses.

Most substance abusers do so to numb pain. What pain are they masking? Abuse perhaps? I did.

Behavior is learned. Victims of emotional abuse in childhood learn to view emotional manipulation as normal. So if a 'third party' has the ability to easily manipulate an EAC, where did they/We learn to accept that as normal? I learned from my 'family' that I was always wrong and my 'betters' were that and my thoughts/feelings were 'stupid' so I should just 'listen'. So I tried to 'obey' whoever had the most 'power' -- just like I was taught. So if an abused son has to choose between his abusive mom or wife... He's still being abused.

This is what ABUSIVE EP/EGP's don't want to see/acknowledge. It's part of the cycle of abuse. This is why some abuse victims become abusers and then start acting the same.

It's the 'old story' of, "My mom/m.i.l. was terrible but I would have never dreamed of walking away or withholding the grands..." So they tolerated a certain amount of abuse, so now that they are the 'older and wiser' they deserve/demand the same respect.

Which leads to another Common Theme -- "I am owed respect as the 'parent'." Which also amounts to, "I was abused by my 'family' and now it's your 'turn' to put up with/love/accept how I treat you."

The idea that respect is earned and relationships are 2-way is often lacking in abusive EP's because they likely didn't get taught better either. And what I find sadder still is, IF some EP's would just understand that they were taught the 'blame game' as early in life as I was and how that influenced how they raised their own children/contributed to the cycle of abuse, the cycle could be broken or at least repaired a little.

HolyHannah, I do think your posts are inclined to be one sided. I am not estranged from my family, I can see however how it happens, the problem is the longer you are out of touch, the less chance of a reconcilliation. Some people, even family just don't get on, and it's not a positive experience being with them, it brings them down. It's an old saying , you choose your friends but not your family.

I have been estranged by my sister for the last 15 months. I am finding it incredibly painful and have tried to make contact several times without any success. I find it hard not to dwell on it and I think about it a lot of the time and it disturbs my sleep. I am trying to stop this ruminating as I know it does no good and gets me nowhere. I am a great believer in forgiveness, reconciliation and discussing any differences and making up . However it takes two unfortunately.

You're right mumofmadboys it does take two and in one isn't prepared to do anything to resolve the problem, there's nothing you can do unfortunately.

I agree Sparkling, the longer an estrangement lasts the less likely a reconciliation is to happen.

Both sides move on and to a certain extent get used to their life without the one(s) they no longer see.

I wish positive behaviour was learned, but that isn't always the case, not for our ES anyway.

mumofmadboys, I don't know what happened between you two, but my own sister has stepped back and away on more than one occasion- She tends to be the type to internalize rather than discuss matters, but once she comes back around after having time to sort it out enough for her to initiate meaningful conversation, it winds up being something that she's carried for decades, and sometimes since childhood- The matter having little to do with me specifically, but family in general-

Holy Hannah You describe the abuse cycle clearly. I have certainly observed that cycle in some families dealing with estrangement that I have encountered in my working life. I have also encountered estranged families where that cycle is very clearly not evidenced as a cause. There are so many causes of estrangement.

Do you believe that ALL estrangements are linked to the abuse cycle that you describe?

Madgran -- Without a specific example I never say ALL about anything. I do believe dysfunction is the root cause of most estrangements and dysfunction is symptom of the cycle of abuse.

However, the reasons for the dysfunction in estrangement situations is unique in every case, even where similar themes are involved. In my experience, somewhere in every estrangement situation, is one or more dysfunctional individual(s).

Holy Hannah Thanks for your reply.

I agree that somewhere in every estrangement there is most likely one or more dysfunctional individual(s).

Dysfunction is a recognised symptom of abuse as you say.

Dysfunction is also, as an example, a recognised symptom of specific personality disorders some of which only fully manifest in adulthood.

My point is, the presence of something that is a symptom of abuse, does not mean that abuse is the reason for that symptom in every case. So we are agreed that it is wise to never say ALL about anything

Madgran … My point is the presence of something that is a symptom of abuse, does not mean that abuse is the reason for that symptom in EVERY case.

That is all I ever hope others will try to understand.

Smileless -- You said to Me, "I pointed out that I had indeed referred to this in my first post on the first page of this thread; you've simply ignored this."

No. I didn't ignore anything. You misread/misinterpreted what I said. The quote in question about "I will always be on the side of their mums/mils's." was said right here on Gransnet. In fact, the first person to comment after the person posted it was You. You never mentioned the inappropriate nature of the comment then.

In all the subsequent comments on the thread I quoted from, no other EP/EGP mentioned/condemned or acknowledged the statement OR the EAC who did point it out. THOSE were the 'crickets' I was referring to.

I still don't see anywhere in your comments earlier in this thread or on any other thread, where you specifically denounce that particular statement.

*Madgran … My point is the presence of something that is a symptom of abuse, does not mean that abuse is the reason for that symptom in EVERY case.

That is all I ever hope others will try to understand.*

Namsnanny

Your OP didn't make it clear that that particular comment had been made here on GN HolyHannah.

I specifically stated that I am not and never will be always on the side of EAC mums and m.i.l.'s and I stand by my view that this was ignored by you, as are the majority of my posts because they don't fit in with your representation that EP's/EGP's are in the position they are in due, because they have been in some way abusive.

Some excellent posts Madgran . Abuse not being a factor in "EVERY" case is what I wish others will try to understand Namsnanny.

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/not-all-estranged-parents-are-abusive.html

Such a common theme...

Well it will be a common theme wont it HolyHannah because not all EP's are abusive.

I really don't want to offend anyone but I am struggling a little because I'm seeing what you are saying HolyHannah. I've been pulled up and had to explain the smallest remarks that could be taken the wrong way here. When I explain I'm told that I didn't say anything wrong in the first place. It's really confusing x

There are examples on GN at the moment where parents are handing over money for fear of not seeing their AC and GC; examples of abusive AC.