Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

I don't agree that you've "been pulled up" Yennifer being asked to explain, give more information or be disagreed with about something you have posted happens to us all.

You asked in a previous post if you'd done something wrong and I responded by saying that you hadn't. I would have thought that was the correct response.

That's not a very friendly response, I feel how I feel! I think that things get taken personally sometimes when ECs are talking about their own upbringing and I get that, I just feel like I am hurting people's feelings by accident because of an assumption I didn't know was there and its difficult to navigate here if I can't just talk naturally x

I don't think it's terribly fair making the EPs responsible for commenting on the 'I'm always on the side of the EPs' comment.

I commented on the first page and I read the original post as being from someone who was quite angry and not at all representative of the views of EPs I see here. I didn't feel it needed negating as it was so obviously from an angry viewpoint.

I can also vouch that as an estranged DIL I've personally only felt supported here.

Yes, things do get taken personally especially when there is link after link, and I know you're not the one posting the links, about abusive EP's.

TBF Yennifer you and I have talked openly about our personal experiences here on GN and have been mutually respectful and supportive. When I responded to you before saying you'd done nothing wrong it was to give reassurance; nothing more and I don't know why you referred to that in a post where you say you're being pulled up.

Yennifer - I think you may be reading the post from Smileless2012 incorrectly. She isn't saying you are wrong, but that the intention wasn't to 'pull you up' or question you but it was simply continue the conversation. I can't talk much more specifically as I don't know when you felt pulled up.

I think this forum works as people give each other (largely) the benefit of the doubt.

I must be going mad then x

betty it's good to know that you feel as if you've been supported here on GN.

Why was Smileless's post @ 18.07 not a very friendly response? It was a perfectly friendly, amiable reply; non judgemental and an obvious attempt to placate any misunderstandings.

I must be going mad too because I can't see any offence in it either!

I'm really not sure what you are all wanting from me?

Wanting from you Yennifer? Nothing! Only your opinions, views and outlook; the same as any other poster.

Is handing over money out of fear sane? In life threatening situations, yes-

Paying for visitation is establishing an unhealthy pattern and is using money to persuade/manipulate- Expecting money for visitation is coercion/manipulation-

Can the grandparent that engages in such an activity claim they've done nothing wrong?

are you on the right thread rosecarmel? There is a thread about 'Bank of Mum and Dad'.

To respond to your post rosecarmel can parents who are directly or indirectly making it known to their parents that unless they provide financial assistance and/or free child care, they wont see their AC and GC , claim they've done nothing wrong?

"There are examples on GN at the moment where parents are handing over money for fear of not seeing their AC and GC; examples of abusive AC."

Without knowing the details, it is hard to be certain what is going on in that situation. Abusive AC don't appear in a vacuum. Did they see their parents do similar things with their parents?

In abusive/dysfunctional families money is often used as a tool to manipulate. The, "If you don't fall into line we'll cut you out of the will." line happens.

So if manipulation with money is happening, maybe both sides are abusive. Abusers learn abuse. The cycle of abuse accounts for that. So if an EAC is manipulating/abusing financially, it's a good bet someone else or more in their family does/is doing the same.

All abusers were taught abuse but not all that are abused become abusers.

Agree 100% with Madgran77 : Somewhere in every estrangement there is most likely one or more dysfunctional individual(s). Dysfunction is a recognised symptom of abuse... Dysfunction is also, as an example, a recognised symptom of specific personality disorders some of which only fully manifest in adulthood.... the presence of something that is a symptom of abuse, does not mean that abuse is the reason for that symptom in every case. So we are agreed that it is wise to never say ALL about anything

In any given case, the initial source of a problem may be due to either a parent's or child's issues, just as it is in any type of relationship. It's a mistake to paint any group of people with a single brush.

My personal experience with estrangement was a breakdown between my dad and brother. My brother has a "specific personality disorder" as Madgran77 points out can happen. He started habitually lying when he was 13, and went on to steal from neighbors, drink, take drugs, get arrested, etc. For a long time my mom and dad tried to help him, paying court costs, medical bills, and even property taxes when he was up against it. My dad finally gave up after years of hoping things would work out. After hearing some things from my brother's exes and his daughter about things that had happened in their relationships, my dad cut off contact.

I saw my dad often and remained in contact with my brother but refused to be in the middle. I'd hoped that they would reunite for even one visit while Dad was still here but it didn't happen. Dad died, suddenly from a brain bleed in August. He was a great dad and my hero. I miss him every day. My brother is a sweet man and I love him but something is not wired right, I guess.

Yennifer, I don’t think you’re going mad.

All abusers were taught abuse but not all that are abused become abusers.

Not necessarily by their upbringing/parents

Possibly by a relationship made in adulthood.

Possibly by being too controlled in an adult relationship

Possibly by a personality disorder

Possibly by ...who knows. So many scenarios!

Every human being suffers from dysfunction- Some worse than others- How people navigate each other's dysfunction, as well as their own, is either beneficial or isn't- So it's downright impossible for a parent to have not made mistakes raising children- Such mistakes may not be apparent to parents while raising their babies but manifest years later in their children's behavior- So when a parent says they don't know what they did to be estranged at least they've begun to consider what they might have done which is considerably different from the parent that insists they've done nothing wrong- Abuse may not always be the culprit but rest assured it's always something-

I recently finished reading The Honey Bus by Meredith May- It's a memoir that covers neglect, abuse, estrangement and the many lessons that can be learned about living from bees-

Not necessarily by their upbringing/parents. -- I agree. Of course not. Let's be honest, parents and their behavior have little influence on who their children 'turn out' to be.

Possibly by a relationship made in adulthood. -- I agree. Because happy, confident, well raised children are very easily swayed by some new 'influence' in their life and will quickly reject their loving, 'confidence giving' family.

Possibly by being too controlled in an adult relationship. -- Absolutely. When you are raised as a confident individual you will absolutely, immediately 'give control' to "some other person" because they said you should and will be swayed by their abusive influence.

Possibly by a personality disorder. -- Again I agree. Because yes! Most 'personality disorders' just appear out of "no where". Abuse only accounts for a small percentage of mental issues.

Possibly by ...who knows. So many scenarios! -- Yes! And being raised in an abusive 'home' is not one of those "scenarios" because not ALL EP's are abusive (every EP is a unicorn -- that EP who was rejected for "no reason" or the "evil other party" reason -- the son/daughter in law) so therefore there are NO Estranged Parents who are actually abusive and IF all of Us EAC weren't 'mentally ill'/defective or being 'influenced' by a "real abuser", then there would be no estrangements.

" Yes! And being raised in an abusive 'home' is not one of those "scenarios" because not ALL EP's are abusive (every EP is a unicorn -- that EP who was rejected for "no reason" or the "evil other party" reason -- the son/daughter in law) so therefore there are NO Estranged Parents who are actually abusive and IF all of Us EAC weren't 'mentally ill'/defective or being 'influenced' by a "real abuser", then there would be no estrangements."

I assume you are being ironic/ sarcastic?? I'm not sure!

I have never suggested that no EPs are abusive or that all EACs are mentally defective! Neither statement is true!

"There is this general feeling of "I was a great mother"..."

Yennifer, I think a common mistake is for EPs to assume their EAC has cut them off b/c if issues from the past. But often, it's b/c of recent issues, such as not respecting the EAC as an adult and/or a parent. So maybe the EP was a "great mother" when their ES or ED was growing up, but then the relationship soured. (I realize some EAC have told their EPs that they were "bad parents" which is a different matter.)

"That's why it's so awful to be told I am horrible for going NC."

Ok, I'm a little confused, Yennifer. Since you let one of your DDs spend time w/ your parents recently, it seems you haven't really gone NC. Not totally, anyhow.

Also, you tell us your parents were "abusive." So what has changed? What made you feel ok about letting your 14-year-old stay w/ them?

Regardless, I'm sorry your mum doesn't understand "baby steps." I hope you are able to set and enforce limits, anyhow.

it's downright impossible for a parent to have not made mistakes raising children

Very true rose carmel