Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

Excellent example/s of denial, delusion and dysfunction-

My previous post was in response to HolyHannah-

Hmmm... I didn't respond specifically to the "I'll always be on the side of" the EPs/EGPs/EMILs comment b/c I didn't think we were expected to reply to one specific statement in the OP. I replied to the post as a whole, saying I would always want to hear EAC's thinking, etc. IMO, it's not uncommon to find some parents/GPs to side exclusively w/ EPs. just as it's not uncommon to find some AC who always side w/ EAC. I didn't see the need to focus on that one sentence. In fact, IMO, it's a no-brainer that the fault can be on either side or both sides, and that a one-sided statement is a negative.

As for abusiveness, no doubt, it can exist on either side. And we've heard many appalling stories here of both abusive parents and abusive AC. But I've also heard/read stories of AC who went NC b/c of repeated offenses by their parents, such as unsolicited advice, criticism of their lifestyle, home, spouse, kids, etc. and breaking the rules the AC have for their kids. More a matter of "disrespect" than "abuse" (meaning disrespect of the AC as adults and/or parents, themselves). The CO may come after several attempts to stop the offending behavior and many arguments, drama, and temporary estrangements, and be very disturbing to both sides. But in these cases, actual abuse may not be involved. Personally, I would prefer to go LC than NC in these situations. But from what I've seen, some people do go NC b/c for these reasons.

Sounds like an interesting book, rosecarmel!

No one is saying that no EP's were abusive HolyHannah the problem is you seem unable or unwilling to accept that not all EP's were. You also seem to be unable or unwilling to accept that some EAC are abusive.

"Abuse may not always be the culprit but rest assured it's always something" but not always something that is down to the EAC's parents rosecarmel.

I don't know why it's impossible for some EAC to recognise that not all EP's have done something to account for their estrangement.

EP's/EGP's accept that there are abusive parents and that is why they've been estranged, and we don't need link after link to prove this. We also don't need sarcastic posts to make the point either.

Thank you for sharing gmarie. I'm sorry for the loss of your father who sounds like he was a lovely man and I can understand why he was your hero.

It must be difficult for you dealing with your brother's problems and it's good to know that you are there for him.

Sorry for the loss of your beloved dad, gmarie. And the problems your brother has. Sorry also for estrangement between them and how it must have impacted you. Good for you for not being drawn in the middle! I know that must not have been easy.

I agree that dysfunction can be the result of a personality disorder. And it seems very likely that this is the case w/ your brother. However, in some situations, I think it's also the dynamics between the people involved. They may be perfectly lovely as individuals, but for whatever reason, their relationship may be toxic.... Just my thoughts...

Smileless, I empathize with your sentiments and recognize deep-seated denial when I see it having wrestled with it myself-

I belong to a local birding group whose members argue over things like whether or not the wing-ed creature in the blurry photo is a robin or a towhee- But all agree it's a bird .. because they've learned what a bird looks like- Determining whether or not it's a robin or towhee is a little more complicated ..

No, I don't think you do "recognize deep-seated denial" if you're suggesting you see that in me, rosecarmel because I don't have it.

If that is something you have wrestled with yourself, perhaps you're projecting your own experience onto me.

You seem to think you know what an abusive EP 'looks like' but you couldn't be more wrong with me.

I don't know you, Smileless- I can only respond to your posts- You might not be anything like what you write in real life-

The way I write is the way I am in "real life" rosecarmel; as I said you appear to be projecting. I hope it helps you in some way to do so, but I don't think it will.

Not necessarily by their upbringing/parents. -- I agree. Of course not. Let's be honest, parents and their behavior have little influence on who their children 'turn out' to be.

Ofcourse parents have an influence but people are not set in stone by that upbringing; influences and experience change us and our views throughout our life

Possibly by a relationship made in adulthood. -- I agree. Because happy, confident, well raised children are very easily swayed by some new 'influence' in their life and will quickly reject their loving, 'confidence giving' family.

In relationships, issues that one partner has can take over the life/thinking that the other in the relationship has. We all change/adapt as part of relationships; in a healthy relationship probably for the better. In a less healthy one, may be not, to the detriment of our other relationships

Possibly by being too controlled in an adult relationship. -- Absolutely. When you are raised as a confident individual you will absolutely, immediately 'give control' to "some other person" because they said you should and will be swayed by their abusive influence.

Ditto my point above. And when relationships start confident people do not always realise what is happening to them; read about it in articles about emotional abuse and how all confidence and past relationships/friendships are stripped away

Possibly by a personality disorder. -- Again I agree. Because yes! Most 'personality disorders' just appear out of "no where". Abuse only accounts for a small percentage of mental issues.

This one I think you need to read up on the nature of personality disorders, linked to development in the teenage years and causes ...both genetic and other. And reasons are very clearly not always linked to upbringing!

I am truly not trying to enter an argument here , nor am I trying to "prove" anything about estrangement. I just think that balance, open mindedness to different circumstances and reasons and a recognition that estrangement has so many different causes, all painful for someone, are important.

Good posts Madgran and smileless - sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!

Great post Madgran, I hope it's taken on board.

Pantglas.

I haven't been letting either DD spend time with my mother! Older had no interest at all because my mother had no interest in her. My mother didn't like her name as it was very slightly similar to a name of a person she didn't like so she wrote off an entire child. The younger was little at the time of estrangement and doesn't remember. When it first started I was meaning to let my babies see her but she wasn't interested in having them on her own and I wasn't going to go. When she asked again after a year or so I was fully awake to having been abused and a counsellor had helped me understand so I wasn't going to let an abusive person around my babies x

Smiless, it's not impossible to discuss what one doesn't recognize, it happens all the time- Just like in the birding group- But if not birding, Maybe The Emperor's New Clothes or the elephant in room?

You're wasting your time I'm afraid rosecarmel, trying project your own issues onto me. It doesn't do me any harm but I don't see how it can be doing you any good.

PS nice picture by the way

No effort is wasted, Smileless .. One can seize opportunity openly or privately ..

There's no opportunity for me to seize rosecarmel but there's an opportunity for you to seize if you want too.

Read the threads and posts from EP's/GP's who loved and cared for their children, did their very best for them, never abused them but were estranged by them anyway.

Take the opportunity to take off your one way glasses and see that not all EP's abused their children and that not all EAC are innocent when it comes to being abusive.

You might also find it helpful, rather than restricting yourself to sites that relate to abusive EP's, to look at sites where you can read for yourself the pain and desperation felt by so many who have been cruelly abandoned by their AC and had their GC taken away.

It does help to have an open mind rosecarmel, to be open to the experiences of others that don't match your own. Being that way would enable you to have a more rounded and realistic view of estrangement, in all its forms.

rosecarmel -- I'm glad you appreciated.

Smileless, every parent makes mistakes that impact family dynamics- Some are subtle and others dramatic- The effects or ripple that follows what one says or does could be detected immediately and addressed in some situations while in other cases not surface until much later in life-

Its perfectly healthy behaviour for any parent to consider what they have done to contribute to a situation of estrangement but without beating themselves up about it- It's denial to turn a blind eye and believe no such mistake had been made and blame others instead-

Of course every single parent makes mistakes rosecarmel, every human being makes mistakes and like every EP we thought long and hard about what had happened to cause our estrangement, and it was nothing that we had done.

We had an extremely good and close relationship with our ES for 27 years, up until he married and had his first child. When there were problems, which of course there were, we talked them through as a family and always found a way to deal with them that everyone concerned was comfortable with.

If our ES had only estranged us, it would be more than reasonable to accept that there was a problem with us, but apart from his brother who he has limited contact with, he has estranged his entire family including both GM's.

You call it denial "blaming" others and I'm sure there are EP's who are in denial, but we are not.

There's no reason why in-laws should like each other or get along any more than random strangers.

There's so much pressure, though, to be 'happy families', a lot of expectations, making an effort, compromise etc. Sometimes, it's far easier to simplify life by not bothering at all.

My friend's DIL says that she 'doesn't deserve' to be part of her grandchildren's life. What, I wonder, is required to make her qualify?

I would say your friends DIL can't qualify her statement Hetty and the truth isn't that your friend "doesn't deserve to be a part of her grand children's life", her DIL just doesn't want her to be.