Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

My friend's DIL says that she 'doesn't deserve' to be part of her grandchildren's life. What, I wonder, is required to make her qualify?

The word "deserve" suggests that the DIL thinks your friend has done something/things that have negated her "deserving"! From some seriously shocking stories on this forum there might be validity in that decision BUT equally from other shocking stories there might be no real validity atall! Which is where Smileless statement her DIL just doesn't want her to be. fits!

Sometimes estranged children are forced to estrange wider family because the wider family are not content to just have a relationship with them and insist on trying to fix the broken relationship. If you have decided to estrange and people constantly want you to unestrange and put unfair pressure on then they have to go too. Especially when it becomes obvious that is the only subject they are interested in speaking to you about.

Smiless, consider how "we/I did nothing" is rigid and "I/we wonder what I/we did" is fluid- The first determined definite although not correct and the second a gentle ongoing question that arises from time to time- The first view is closed while the second is left open for access to insight and possibilities-

It's not uncommon for members of supposedly close families to discover they don't know one another, each having been someone they had to be in order to maintain a particular family dynamic-

We did the "I/we wonder what I/we did" rosecarmel.

You're right about close family members not actually knowing one anther, but not because anyone in our family needed to be a particular person "in order to maintain a particular family dynamic", our ES has done something we, the rest of our family and friends, would never have thought possible.

He's not the person we thought he was.

I can't remember where I was saying it? Most of my family estranged me, some of them not until after sending numerous guilt trips didn't force me to change my mind. I know they might have wanted to help but they were wanting to help her not me and weren't asking after me and the children, it was just relentless x

Yennifer -- It's another common theme around EP's. They talk about knowing about Narcissistic abuse, pretend to know what it actually is and what the language around it means and then twist/make up definitions that fit their narrative.

Anyone who is a scapegoat in their family understands the dynamic well. If you are a scapegoat in a 'family' like mine, everyone is allowed to bully you.

So when I hear things like, "My EAC not just abandoned Me but their siblings and extended family as well!" I always think, "The goat got away! Go goat!" My only concern is that scapegoats often move on to a different abusive environment but at least they have escaped the old abuser(s).

Starblaze I agree, "estranged children are forced to estrange wider family because the wider family are not content to just have a relationship with them and insist on trying to fix the broken relationship."

No other bits of family should enter into the fray, none of their business, really.

I never had any understanding about family scapegoating until a few years ago. The idea that whole families can be dysfunctional is crazy x

Yennifer -- The idea does sound "crazy" and yet if you've lived it you understand the reality. That's why recognizing that dysfunction is the first step in stopping it.

Unfortunately the scapegoat is usually the first to notice a 'problem' and want to make changes, but NO ONE in the 'family' EVER "listens" to the scapegoat. EVERYTHING the scapegoat says is WRONG.

This is why I find it humorous that some insist I don't believe abusive AC exist. Of course they do. However, abusive AC aren't the ones that go No Contact. Abusers want/need to be around their victims, otherwise how can they abuse them?

I do, I think it was easier to believe I was crazy than a whole family. Even with friends, husband and my own children saying I wasn't x

That makes sense HolyHannah, my mother still hasn't let me go x

Yennifer - Yes. That is part of the scapegoat role. Making you seem like the crazy one so that everyone else gets to feel 'normal' and that there is no bigger issue at play, like family dysfunction. If the source of all conflict in the 'home' is because of the scapegoat, then no one else needs to examine/acknowledge their bad behavior.

I have certainly observed the scapegoat dynamic in some families that I have supported in my working life

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/matter-personality/201109/the-family-dynamics-patients-borderline-personality

I was really annoyed for a while that I couldn't prove myself somehow. It was all her word against mine an I knew I'd lose because I'd already lost many times without knowing I was playing. I had fantasies about her outing herself some how, getting drunk or breaking a bone and needing morphine. It was really really damaging because I thought some sort of karma would get her. Now I know I just have to be happy and make my own family and friendship circles x

I've been through a lot of phases in my life, self distructive, angry and confrontational, loner and lonely. The worst happened when I estranged, my depression and anxiety became the worst it has ever been. I felt completely lost, I had no sense of who I was as a person. I felt suicidal. Slowly it got better. I started volunteering, then went back into education and fi ally got a job after not working 12 years. I started looking for who I wanted to be. I quite often don't trust myself. I do things for others and feel fake afterwards as if, I only did it for a bad reason. I think horrible things about people and don't say them and again feel like I am awful for thinking it even though they absolutely are not nice people. I'm my own worse enemy at times because her voice has become my voice in my head now and apparently I can torture myself even more easily than she could. Despite that I continue to get better, healthier even though I don't see it day to day, I know it is there looking back. My mind honestly feels so complex and my thought processes seem to have to go through the whole alphabet to get from a to b. It's exhausting and a constant battle. Even knowing I am basically a good person logically, emotionally I quite often feel like an awful mess. So I have so much empathy for ECs in general because how much damage do they even know they have? How much behaviour do they even understand? It's taken me 40 years and I'm still not a whole person. I'm. Doing the only thing I can do, try to love myself anxious and depressed and a bit neurotic because I don't think it will ever change x

I (goat) went from crazy family to crazy relationships- The pattern was set- But at least point A to B (to C to D to ..) wasn't in a straight line but an upward incline-

The pattern was set generations ago and handed down- If it were a communicable disease, it would be deemed insanely contagious- Those that broke out of it, for themselves and/or to set examples for their children, remain without partners- Loving themselves and their children is not only fulfilling but enough-

I'm the family escapegoat now lol

Yennifer -- "So I have so much empathy for ECs in general because how much damage do they even know they have?" This line resonated with me. I agree, EAC often do not know the damage done until much later.

What saddens me more is the number of EP/EGP's that say they were abused, "got over it" and definitely DID NOT abuse their children, all the while talking/behaving in the same ways our abusers did/do that ended in No Contact.

Until people acknowledge the damage done to them in childhood they are doomed to perpetuate the cycle by either becoming an abuser themselves or an enabler who sees the behavior as "normal".

Escapegoat... I love it!

As a child I recognized behaviors that were not "right" but not the patterns and interactions that take place in abusive relationships- It wasn't until many, many years later before I noticed them-

My grandmother was abused, my mom was abused, I was abused - My grandmother remained married- My mother remained married- I did not-

But .. I was the family f* up- I was breaking patterns, handed down generation after generation- I dug in my heels even as a child- Spoke up for myself as I grew and got punched-
And it was one thing for the males to think they were better me- But even the women did too-

I was the first one in our family to initiate estrangement- A new pattern, that even I didn't understand at the time but instinctively knew was a necessary course of action-

It impacted my family in ways that I hold myself accountable for because it brought confusion and suffering to others- Nonetheless, I was clear about what I would no longer allow and as a result began to set boundaries-

So when estranged people say they don't know what they did to become estranged I believe them- Because what was clear to me wasn't clear to my family- If it was, I wouldn't have any reason for setting myself apart for my own well-being as well as theirs-

It's simply not possible to engage in meaningful, vulnerable discussions with others whose focus is you've hurt them despite the fact that the reason you stepped back is because they neglected you, abused you, had expectations of you that you didn't meet therefore you're basically a creep- Which has some truth to it, a creep in recovery at least ..

rosecarmel -- I go back and forth on the issue of, "I don't know WHY!!!" Obviously that and the "evil other party" reason are the most common themes with EP's, but is it true?

I think what the real question or statement they are making is, "Why NOW?". In their mind We tolerated/accepted the treatment/abuse forever, "Why did they stop tolerating my behavior now, when they always were 'okay with it' in the past?"

www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/matter-personality/201411/parents-cut-adult-children-clueless

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/matter-personality/201611/parents-cut-adult-children-clueless-part-2

A lot of estranged people refuse to see they contributed to the problem in any way. If there is to ever be reconcilliation you have to really look at yourself, hard as it is, if you know in your heart you did contribute, few are completely blameless, then apoligise sincerely, try to rebuild. I think for a lot of people they have to be right regardless. After long term estrangement I can't see how things will ever amicable. If you really were the victim, you are well out of it, as peope rarely change, the only way forward then is make a happy life. I think we all expect life to be fair, when in many cases it just isn't.

Sparkling -- Yes. I totally agree. Due to my upbringing/abuse, in the past, I have said and done many things I regret. Too many to count. When I realized that childhood abuse made me act/react the way I did, I changed my behavior and stopped repeating old patterns.

I get accused of being bitter and angry and "holding onto the past" when I speak of my recovery and BECAUSE I speak of my recovery journey, but I speak about it to give others hope that they too can find some measure of peace in the future AND forgive themselves.

Fan or not, Dr. Phil has it correct when he asks, "Do you want to be 'right' or do you want to be happy?"

The second link in your post of 05.32 Holy Hannah is particularly interesting!

I agree too and although it took a few years to come to terms with our son’s estrangement we did eventually see that we were better off out of it.