rosecarmel and Holyhannah I think my moment was the first time I genuinely enjoyed a hug. I wasn't hugged much growing up and my mum on the rare occasion she did, it was taken by force. I don't know how to really set the scene on that one but there were sharp nails in it.
I always thought I just wasn't a cuddly person except for my children who I could hold for hours and did.
The first time I really needed a hug and got it and it didn't feel wrong or awkward was just amazing. I'm a huggy person now.
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
I was given a card for my b/day- It has a picture of an awkward child on the front- The inscription reads: glad to see you grew out of your awkward phase- 
It's a precious thing to be truly seen-
That reminds me of a mother's day card I got a couple of years ago. There's a line drawing on the front of a mother holding the hand of a very stroppy looking child. The message inside is "It's OK mum, I get it now".
Starblaze and rosecarmel -- I think what was special about that apology was that I finally felt understood. He understood immediately why I was upset and reacted in a healthy manner. We had to build what a healthy relationship should be and neither of us had grown up with one.
As for physical affection, I understand that as well. To this day when we are close to each other we are often touching, if just holding hands.
It's a precious thing to be truly seen- -- Yeah. I feel truly seen by my guy.
That's really made me smile.
Smileless, some time back while struggling to decide what action to take, if any, someone said something to me that seemed like a riddle at the time- It was suggested to just show up, to be there without expectation- And bring a sack of oranges with me each visit-
Bringing the oranges was easy-Peeling them and giving them away was easy- The smiles were easy-
Speaking truth to power wasn't- The variables of opening ones mouth are infinite- If I didn't hold myself accountable I'd of succumbed to shame instead of finding the courage to rise to the occasion- (awkwardly, because I am)
I'd still be peeling oranges if I didn't-
emergingfrombroken.com/mothers-day-is-hard-when-the-mother-shows-no-love/comment-page-1/#comments
This is an excellent read as are the comments. I'm going to spend some more time on this site and will share anything I think is helpful. Stay strong and safe.
An EP said this "I was listening to something online about narcissim, a Dr. Carter and he was talking about his twin brother and how much they were alike, both very educated and a psychologist. He said they were just wired that way.
He believes people are wired a certain way from birth and then they also learn behaviors from watching people. This makes sense to me. I know I cant do a damn thing about my EC and if they are wired a certain why which they are so much like my parents and their Dad. They are so self centered and no empathy for anyone whatsoever. No amount of talking to them will work. You just argue."
I watched the same video and there was a lot more in the video then that 'sum-up'. Once again this person watched the video and their 'take-away' was, blame their child for being a Narcissist and don't explore the rest of what the video actually said.
Having a predisposition for Narcissism and adding being raised by a Narcissist, will make it all the easier for the next generation of Narcissist to develop. As a finish he added that the only way for the cycle to stop is for people to identify it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQkGR_Kg3gk&t=181s
I think often narcissists see others as narcissist if the others are not giving them everything they need/want. Therefor they are selfish and uncaring and narcissistic. Never a thought to whether their needs are unreasonable.
Starblaze -- That's exactly what I got out of reading the article from EFB and a lot of the 'common theme' comments on it. (Once I figured out how to read the comments 'in order' -- which was no easy feat)
We often hear, "We were 'so close' until we were not. It was like a switch 'flipped' in THEM." and then a list of all the potential reasons/excuses (usually the evil/controlling child-in-law). And I would have said the same thing-ish. I thought/believed We were 'close' because I was gaslighted into believing that...
In the comments Kris said, "I know in my heart, if I would have had children of my own, I would have passed down these same sick warped belief systems right onto them as sure as I am sitting here because I know where I was at 3 ½ years ago prior to therapy and I know what it took for me to break through all of these sick mind sets. I believed them hook, line, and sinker and it took YEARS for me to tease these things apart in order to find the truth and my mother’s name was written all over them but you cant fix what you don’t see and I know that my mother didn’t see any of this junk just like I didn’t for the last 50 years.
I was in complete denial, just like where my mother is at right now, because that’s what generational abuse teaches you and because you surround your self with a bunch of people who believe the same garbage as you do, nothing ever changes until some outside force teaches you something different. She just never had that outside force until now, with me, but now she is 80 years old. I don’t even know if she has the mental capacity to do the kind of work necessary to overcome this junk because I know what it took out of me."
In other words... All that trying to please/appease our 'parents' when we were minor children/dependent on them, was just them getting their supply/drug from the overall dysfunction of the 'family'.
Like 'Kris' -- I believed them hook, line, and sinker and when I finally said NO to playing any more of the 'family games' I became the Narc for putting myself first. And all a "good little goat" has to 'do' is bleat once/want to be considered for ONCE for the abuser to 'flip the switch' on their victim/child.
DARVO.
She built herself a proud parent 
m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1B3gATS0GE
rosecarmel -- That video was priceless. I'm a huge fan of the surprise guest. Absolutely great for laugh. Thanks for sharing.
You're welcome- 
Rosecarmel. That is one clever girl. Great vid thanks
You're welcome 
I just received a "you'll always be perpetually less" text -- during a pandemic-
And it was attached to a glittery GIF no less!
Bwahahaha!
Ooo those are fun rosecarmel!
rosecarmel -- I have been following one of my fave sites and many EP's think now is a good time for trying to renew a relationship and when met with silence? Oh, they get MAD.
I am glad you were able to laugh it off, but who needs that now?
Seriously, wait till your child is having a special day or going through a stressful situation and make both worse Or pick a rainy random day. You know they will pick the one that causes the most upset
With the current situation I can understand why some who are estranged may be tempted to 'reach out', that said it is most definitely not what I'd want from our ES.
Smileless2012 good for you, healthy to move on.
To be clear, it was from a sibling that I do speak to from an ever increasing emotional distance-A golden child, who with all they've "got going" for them, now as well as then, continues to make an effort to suggest that I'm perpetually less while disguising it as a kindness wrapped in compulsory, retaliatory glitter-
I didn't unwrap it- No need to- I know what it is- It's a circle- 
A common theme is "two sets of rules" and it is manifested in many ways by dysfunctional thinkers/abusers.
Like this quote from an EP, "“The term “snowflake generation” was one of Collins English Dictionary’s 2016 words of the year. Collins defines the term as “the young adults of the 2010s, viewed as being less resilient and more prone to taking offence than previous generations”. “The term snowflake applies to young people who think they are special and unique, like real snowflakes.” “A “snowflake” is a term used to describe an overly sensitive person who thinks the world revolves around them. Snowflakes gasp in horror when they hear an opinion they don’t like, and believe they have a right to be protected from anything unpalatable”.
Say, "Okay Boomer." back to that person and I can hear the screams of, "How dare YOU!"
Declaring that the younger are just 'Snowflakes' is just a new cop-out for some to use. All the while many EP's accuse EAC of 'painting them all with the same brush' while they are declaring anybody younger, who disagrees with them/doesn't want to hear more of their dysfunctional BS is a 'Snowflake'. So it's okay for 'them' to do that, but any hint that EP's all have commonalities that likely contributed to their estrangement is heresy.
It's not difficult to see the 'two sets of rules' at play unless you are being willingly blind and that is called denial.
I have a bit of a thing for rules and routines. Being expected to have 1 set of rules for some and another set for others.... Well I just won't have it, as you can probably tell lol
Declaring that anyone or any group of people are snowflakes is dismissive. As for there being one set of rules for one and one set for another, well the majority of people find that annoying to say the least, especially when there are some who don't practice what they preach.
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