Honestly I would suggest you read the exchange again. My comments are about how estranged children aren't innocent and do carry dysfunction and recognise it, look for ways to heal. Yours are beligerant attacks that ignore my actual words. Which is exactly the problem and the difference between us. Then you accuse anger and bitterness. It's not logical.
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
"I've seen some very kind sweet posters bullied away remember"; only in your imagination.
A good example of dysfunctional thinking; "The one estranged child you do have time for isn't all that nice a person". I can only reiterate a sentence from your own post in relation to this "Just uncalled for really and the type of thing I am talking about".
An another example of dysfunctional thinking, you disagree with me and I disagree with you but my comments are "belligerent attacks that ignore (your) actual words" even though on more than one occasion I've actually quoted you.
No it's just my truth Smileless and I judge people by their behaviour.
I myself left several times due to the way you and others were harassing me. Only when I try to talk to you about it it was me that harassed you... Clearly dysfunctional thinking again. Clearly a non resolution again because you can't see that you played your part, misunderstood or lumped me in with others who I'm not responsible for. To you I'm just another bitter angry estranged child who needs putting in their place when actually I am a real human being who isn't perfect and does lash out at times, does apologise and try to make amends. You? Not so much. I would be happy for you to prove me wrong. It would be a nicer place for both of us then.
Strange though isn't it that your truth is the only 'truth' you're interested in and speak of truth when being dishonest about what really happened several months ago.
I do think you are angry and bitter and I honestly feel for you in that regard, but I don't think you should be put in your place for what you've experienced and for the way it affects you, when perhaps it is help you need.
You are at WAR Smileless that's the truth. Estranged children cannot come here and speak without you finding something you dislike in their words. You defend and speak for other estranged parents without thought. You even go to posts that are by estranged children for estranged children and find reasons to pull them down and make it about estranged parents. That's the truth. If and when you see that, perhaps we can find a way to get along. Im sure I will keep trying anyway. As long as we are stuck here together, it would be nicer to be amicable don't you think?
But do those articles help you to heal? I see more anger and bitterness from some EAC here on GN than I ever see from EP's. IMO those articles do seek to portray EAC "are poor innocent victims" as well as portraying all EP's as villains.
Perception is reality. Projection is 'reality' in the dysfunctional world. My 'opinion' is FACT moves into Narc territory...
Smileless is confusing/blurring the line between what we were, innocent children that were abused and twisting it to -- Because you were abused now you and others are acting like EAC are faultless/perfect.
We were innocent children who did not deserve to be abused by those who were supposed to love and protect Us. Now that we are adults that doesn't translate to -- "Because we were unjustly blamed/shamed as children we become 'perfect' in adulthood and NEVER have to be wrong again as a balance."
Holyhannah right! Going back to your article about shame, it's toxic shame that makes it hard to apologise or admit any fault in any situation. It can be fixed though! When you realise that normal people take your apology and don't punish you forever regardless of how sorry you are, it's so easy to say it.
Not including fauxpologies. Those are such a butt pain.
No I am not at war. Everything you have said about the way you see EAC treated here on GN in your last post, I see EP's and EGP's being treated.
Absolutely, a faux apology is worse than no apology at all. There we've found something we can agree on.
Classic Smileless
Starblaze -- My husband and I have a funny story about apologies which I would share, but I avoid public personal stories. However, the point of the story is we both had Narc mom's and were both the SG kids. We were both well into recovery when we met. While playing a game (outdoors) I thought I had hurt him because he went all man-child. I was horrified that I may have damaged this person I loved. When he saw the look on my face he went white. He said, "I'm not hurt and I am sooo sorry. I didn't think on how you would feel if you had damaged me, even if accidentally."
I'm pretty sure that was the first real and sincere apology I had ever received in a healthy relationship. And as a bonus he has never faked injury to get my attention again. He understands he has it (my attention/affection) without the dysfunction.
Apologies are kind of a pet peeve for me in regards to another's judgement of sincerity of apologies they've received-
It can be deeply hurtful when a sincere apology is met with complete disbelief- Granted each has genuine feelings on the matter, but when someone doesn't have the capacity to recognize sincerity maybe it's time to step back and away?
Smileless isn't everyone in tune with our own personal truth before they could possibly understand someone else's truth? That hardly seems shameful, just normal.
Yes Txquiltz I agree that that's normal but I was thinking in terms of denying another's truth rather than struggling to understand someone else's.
I agree that it can be upsetting when a sincere apology isn't believed. As for judging the sincerity of an apology that can be easy to do when the 'offence' that's been apologised for, is repeated.
Agree rosecarmel, I have actual scars from unaccepted apologies in childhood. I've never given a non genuine apology. I've never received any kind of apology from my mum or stepfather though.
Holyhannah that's really lovely.
I have read all the posts on the last few pages. There has clearly been a lot of effort to explain, to communicate in a constructive way, even when saying things that are hard for people to hear. A lot of what has been said by several different posters, both EAC and EP, child abuse survivors as well, has made a great deal of sense and could be helpful to different posters with different needs and at different stages in their journey.Those different stages make such a difference to how much people can hear and my initial impression was that everyone was trying to keep that in mind, when explaining their perspectives.
But now then sadly it is starting to deteriorate again! I think there are quite a few "uncalled for" comments from both "groups" that people put themselves into creeping in and that is a pity.
Hi Madgran long time no see
Hello Starblaze. I have been very busy sorting out various vulnerable family members, with difficulties due to the lockdown. I am now also busy making Scrubs for the NHS as they are fast running out completely in London Hospitals.
I have been reading off and on as ever, and , as ever, I comment when I think there is something worth saying!!
Pretty awesome thing to be doing. Like it.
Off thread but as I mentioned it on this thread ...…..If anyone else has sewing skills and is interested look at the Facebook page "For the Love of Scrubs" for details. Patterns etc available on ebay and lots of shops providing fabric at correct weight.
I've never been able to sew, I'm horrible at it but I will pass it on
"Holyhannah that's really lovely."
Yes- Thank you for mentioning it, Starblaze- I was going to comment on it but felt nothing I said would do the beauty of it any justice- It wasn't just a personal exchange in the way it was conveyed, it was Tara Westover potent-
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