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I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
OH wow I wish I hadn't seen that!
Why else would some EAC need to fabricate the reasons they give for estranging them.
wow.
I guess I will see you all soon then LOL curiosity about where that one leads is going to get me
Why else would some EAC need to fabricate the reasons they give for estranging them.
What a polite way to call EAC liars on a thread about common themes we understand. Yup. We all just make up fun reasons to make ourselves orphans and I also self-traumatized to the point of getting C-PTSD. That's sarcasm FTR.
Why do wish you hadn't seen that? It happens, it's what some EAC do. You seem to readily accept that EP's fabricate the reasons for their estrangement so why are you unwilling or unable to accept that some EAC do so too?
No not all EAC make things up HolyHannah but some do. Something else you find unpalatable because it doesn't fit your
'all EP's are bad people' narrative.
Why so sensitive? Only last night you were telling me, whose son estranged us because of his dysfunctional, manipulative and controlling wife, that he must have learned from his childhood that such behaviour is normal and acceptable. That no AC who had a healthy, happy and 'normal' childhood could possibly be manipulated in that way.
Who was calling someone a liar then?
Cool Smileless
Pretty sure I've never said that but cool
Ive said my mother lies when she says she doesn't know the reasons why we are estranged.
This is what I mean about you taking something I say and twisting it. I only talk about abusive parents like mine.
I wasn't even thinking about you or your posts Starblaze I was responding to Madgran. It had nothing to do with anything you said about your mother or you for that matter.
The word SOME was used which means it is not referring to all EAC.
However because it is such an understandably emotive comment for an EAC to read, it appears to have been read as being applied to ALL EAC.
This is exactly what happens when references are made to EPs without using the word SOME ....!! Understandably!!
Exactly Madgran which is why I used the word some.
Smileless -- You are trying to speak for EAC. Since you do not consider yourself to be in that category your lack of understanding on the subject material is expected. You say that EAC sometimes make up reasons to estrange. Your 'proof' is that you say so and other EP's agree with you.
My proof is that you cannot find an EAC anywhere that says they estranged for "no reason". The reasons do vary, but the underlying theme is almost always dysfunction or abuse.
So, when you can find an EAC who just walked away from a 'normal' loving family I will believe you. Until then? I am going to stay with 2 plus 2 equaling 4.
20:41Smileless2012
I wasn't even thinking about you or your posts Starblaze I was responding to Madgran
I'm totally confused now, where were you responding to me Smileless? Oh dear!!
Smileless you just said to me
Why do wish you hadn't seen that? It happens, it's what some EAC do. You seem to readily accept that EP's fabricate the reasons for their estrangement so why are you unwilling or unable to accept that some EAC do so too?
That's not true.
I have never made a sweeping statement that EPs are liars.
So are you going to apologise to me now?
I talk about abusive parents because I was raised by one. I know and understand a lot about it. I also know and understand a lot about what leads to estrangement, how times and parenting has changed and can effect relationships and how something generally breaks children in childhood to make them either abusive, addicted or open to being abused. You only need to look at my top comment from yesterday though to see me say I don't think it's necessarily the parents who did it. Because that is what I believe.
As an example, I was sexually abused by a different family member. Even those with wonderful parents don't always feel able to talk about that so I would have come to adulthood with hangups, naive, easily gaslighted and easily taken advantage of etc and it would not have been my hypothetically wonderful parents fault.
Do not put words in my mouth.
My proof is that you cannot find an EAC anywhere that says they estranged for "no reason". The reasons do vary, but the underlying theme is almost always dysfunction or abuse.
I understand this perspective. However I think the problem is that an AC who is caught up in an abusive relationship will do anything to please their abuser ...and that will include expressing a viewpoint on childhood experiences that suits the abusers agenda or accepting and describing the abusers version of events with the parent.
Having observed the changes in people once they are caught up in an abusive relationship, slowly taking place over time (a classic scenario in abusive adult relationships) I know that this can happen where the AC begins to believe the version suggested to them by their abusive partner. I have also observed an Adult Parent begin to believe a version of their AC presented to them by their new abusive and controlling partner who does not like the AC.
People who get caught up in abusive relationships do not always recognise what is happening until it is too late; that is a classic pattern seen and described by domestic abuse survivors.
So I do think that it is not the case that an EAC must have come from a dysfunctional and/or abusive family.
There's another factor too Madgran and that's emotional maturity. There isn't a magic that happens at 18 and poof fully fledged mature adult. Some reach emotional maturity earlier and some much later which is also a reason they may be easily led.
Yes I have observed that too Smileless
Lol do you mean me *madgran?
Um no I didn't mean you Starblaze I was referring to families I have worked with.
Madgran look at your comment at 21:36. I was asking if that was meant for me
.....it sounds as if this could be coercive control. This is a pattern of behaviour (now a criminal offence) where one partner tries to dominate the other and make them dependent on them, often by threats and constantly undermining them, making it harder for them to leave the relationship. People usually associate this with men controlling women, but it can happen both ways and one of the key indications is that the abuser tries to cut off the victim from family and friends
This is a description given by Zelda West-Meads, that might be of interest.
21:48Starblaze
Madgran look at your comment at 21:36. I was asking if that was meant for me
Yes I know. As I say, I was telling Smileless that I have observed emotional maturity as another factor ...and I meant in families that I have worked with
Oh Madgran I so want to hug you right now. It was me who wrote the comment about emotional maturity, which is why I was asking if your reply was meant for me lol
Common theme -- EAC are immature/not 'adult' and need to go elsewhere.
High time that those with their harsh words and try hard language climbed onto those Unicorns and went off to play elsewhere. Not convinced that discussions with adults are really their thing?
Nobody says things like that here...
It doesn't matter to me whether you believe me or not HolyHannah. I don't need to find you an EAC who walked away from a 'normal' loving family, I gave birth to one.
If I found you 100 other EAC who did the same, it wouldn't alter your biased view.
Excellent posts Madgran especially about coercive control now being recognised as a criminal act. My post at the bottom of page 12 was in response to you.
The section of a post you've just highlighted is from another thread HolyHannah and taking it in context of the post as a whole, as opposed to taking it out of context as you've just done, it's obviously about the nature of the posts on that thread, and not saying that "EAC are immature/not 'adult' and need to go elsewhere".
Hey Smileless don't you think it is time for that apology?
I don't believe that the poster I have never seen before meant any different but you are welcome to of course defend them where you wouldn't defend estranged children who said something similar...
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