Smileless -- You just completely justified away an absolutely disgusting thing to say to anyone. I cannot imagine the pitchforks and torches if I said anything remotely similar to that directed at EP's.
So you can say or do crappy things so long as it has some excuse/justification? Just like the EP who slapped her son multiple times. Everyone has a 'breaking point' was her excuse and other EP's agreed with her. Yet she claims she's being 'scapegoated' by her family because they all took her 'abusive' sons side.
I can find EP after EP like her to claim to not know why they are estranged. So do you see why I just don't believe immediately EP's who say, "I didn't do anything." she was saying the same and playing the victim.
issendai.com/wp/estrangement/the-slow-build-getting-details-one-drip-at-a-time/comment-page-1/#comment-21746
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
issendai.com/wp/estrangement/the-slow-build-getting-details-one-drip-at-a-time/
Sorry -- This is a better link.
That's the saddest thing Holyhannah trying to give advice here to help save a relationship and getting shot down by other estranged parents like we are attacking them somehow. I don't want to ever think that any estranged parent would want to recruit new members to some sort of exclusive club. But it's definitely excluding of EACs.
Yet we are accused of being a cult where we spread buzzwords that actually didn't originate from us and advise No Contact to any other adult child that might listen.
I have literally never advised that and never would. It's such an awful personal decision and I estranged before I even knew there were hundreds of thousands of other adult children who have suffered as I have
Starblaze -- I firmly believe that some EP's very much want to see other parents make the same mistakes because it validates their version of events and keeps them from examining their own part in the estrangement.
I believe many EP's are dysfunctional thinkers and they occasionally show it like the woman who got slappy with her son. How she can say to the world, "I just don't know why I am estranged!" is beyond me as were the other EP's not going, "Ummm you hit your adult son. He might be a jerk but hello! Who are you to be hitting anyone!?!?"
Nope. They just simply validated her dysfunction which means there is no happy ending to be found there.
It's the black and white mentality again. If an EP gives advice to a parent headed in that direction that might improve their situation, then that is practically an admission that they may have done something 'wrong' or made a poor decision(s) that made their own situation worse. And that is never going to happen.
I know my own abuser ran on the mentality of, "I tried absolutely nothing to improve my relationship with Hannah and I'm all out of ideas."
"Starblaze -- I firmly believe that some EP's very much want to see other parents make the same mistakes because it validates their version of events and keeps them from examining their own part in the estrangement."
That's a very common pattern- Often fuel by insecurity, greed, ignorance, addiction, defensiveness and fear- From dysfunctional families, co-dependent friendships, small business, corporations, religious institutions, legislation and government-
It sucks-
As I said last night HolyHannh, the section of a post you have highlighted is talking about the content of some of the posts on that particular thread. It is in fact the final paragraph of the post.
You constantly direct comments to EP's which are far worse IMO with your incessant links to the "things/themes that EAC identify with. The tyranny of sensitivity springs to mind.
The only person who can clarify what that comment meant is the person who wrote it Smileless unless that was you?
That's the problem with not only taking a section of someone's post out of context, but doing so from a post that's on another thread.
It's on the 'fear of never seeing her again' thread, the one you've just posted on actually, last but one page I think so why don't you look at it there and then you can ask the poster yourself for clarification.
I have read it. I'm amazed at your capacity to defend it Smileless it was a horrible thing to say on any thread and Holyhannah hasn't copied the worst of it.
I am shocked and upset at the reply to it too that was deleted.
I didn't like the original comment or the reply.
You will of course defend any estranged parent saying nasty things to estranged children whether it was made within the context of just that post or not.
Like I said, the tyranny of sensitivity springs to mind.
Why do you speak for others constantly? Personally I don't like it and you still owe me an apology for doing it to me.
My feelings on any given subject are real. If you want to infer that I am making them up for attention, just say so. Or go tell my mum that, you will be instant best friends Smileless
For goodness sake Starblaze give it a rest. I've given my opinion on my interpretation and you've done the same. No one is disputing the reality of your feelings on any given subject.
If you don't like my posts then don't read them.
Or you could just apologise. Do you k ow how to do that? It's not hard.
Also follow your own rules, if you don't like this post, don't read it 
Yes I do know how to apologise if and when an apology is required. In this case it isn't.
Saying I say things I don't doesn't require an apology? OK Smileless.
I'm not engaging with you anymore in these childish exchanges Starblaze, not only do they disrupt the thread they're boring.
Hi all,
This thread has become a bunfight between users and it'd be great to get the discussion back on track for everyone. We understand that estrangement is sensitive and not everyone agrees, but please refrain from personal attacks. 
www.wellandgood.com/good-advice/perception-is-reality/
This is a perfect example of why my 'family' is dysfunctional... They perceive me as 'lesser' and therefore treat me as such because of it. This also relates to what I posted on a different thread about "taking a step back" and asking internal questions.
That's brilliant Holyhannah shows me just how far I've come, I've always been an optimistic person but now it's more balanced and I also know how to recognise unhealthy people and situations.
The "lesser" pattern is being carried out these threads-
"in" these threads .. 
Oh Madgran I so want to hug you right now. It was me who wrote the comment about emotional maturity, which is why I was asking if your reply was meant for me lol
Oh ok Starblaze to be honest I didn't see your comment on emotional maturity, I only saw Smileless's comment about it.
I can't see a comment from Smileless about emotional maturity Madgran but OK, I can take a hint.
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