How victims behave in abusive relationships
Is a new relationship possible without sex?
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Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
I've seen this play out in friends marriages now too and it makes so much sense. Obvs this changes when the victim gets away and hopefully gets help to see this too x
Can you be a piece of something and still be complete/whole? I think so- Truthful discussions lead to understanding, understanding can lead to making amends-
Reunions aren't a priority- Responsibility is- Which is something people realize after amends are made and not before in many situations-
And if someone doesn't want to make amends, then move on- The effort was made- You never know how much the effort in itself means to people even if they refuse to sit down and have a discussion-
Yennifer, those bulleted behaviors ring true- And I think they occur because people become fearful-
I know more than one person who is abusive, selfish and neglectful and yet incredibly compassionate, kind and giving- Neither side of them is consistent, other than consistently being one way or the other-
I know people like that too rosecarmel. It's an interesting relationship x
Maybe they haven't learnt to scapegoat x
rosecarmel -- That's actually a more common theme with abusers then many would think because it's subtle. It's like to casual acquaintances, "See! She's 'nice'/generous/giving etc. What are YOU complaining about? She talks so 'lovingly' and with 'concern' for You." And as the Scapegoat you have to say, "Well, yes, she CAN be, but she chooses never to be 'that way' toward ME." cue a disbelieving stare...
The Scapegoat(s) in a family are never 'allowed' to develop those dysfunctional behaviors to begin with. Any bad/dysfunctional behavior by the SG is immediately high-lighted, mocked and punished/disciplined over. All the while seeing the double-standards and the, "Well, you did 'insert'..." ONCE after they had done the "same thing" 100x's and now the SG/Me is told they are "just as bad". Which sort of confirms my 'mom' knew her behavior was "bad" but rather then fix/own it and improve? Nope. Blame ANYTHING else... Mostly Me.
This is where I run into 'issues' with abusive/dysfunctional personalities... While I "understand" their dysfunction and how it manifests with B&W thinking and the many other variations of emotionally unhealthy beliefs... I can't grasp how people cannot 'see'/self reflect on their own behavior. As someone who was taught to see nothing but my own 'flaws' (perceived or otherwise) I have to wonder... What do dysfunctional/abusive people "tell/convince themselves of" that allows them to keep 'swimming so deep in the Nile'?
I have no issue with people self-labeling as a child-abusive victims because I always believe a 'victim' first until their behavior/evidence shows otherwise. What I won't agree with or give a "pass" to, is when a victim clearly has become as dysfunctional as their abuser(s) and repeated the cycle whether they will admit it/see it or not.
"What I won't agree with or give a "pass" to, is when a victim clearly has become as dysfunctional as their abuser(s) and repeated the cycle whether they will admit it/see it or not. "
That's understandable- For me, it matters if they see it or they don't- Seeing it and continuing is different than unknowingly following patterns- The behavior isn't passable, but it inevitably gets passed from one to another- It doesn't appear that anyone escapes that transfer, but it does appear that one can take notice and change-
When the cycle of abuse is being repeated it's hard to understand how someone who recognises the abuse they received, but doesn't see their own abusive behaviour as abuse.
Allowing that no one is perfect wouldnt ever negate the necessity of these sorts of forums. We can acknowledge we all have flaws and challenges and imperfections and still insist on better treatment from others, and refuse to tolerate abuse. Abusers don’t abuse because they think their targets are imperfect. Estrangements will always be necessary.
Abuse should never be tolerated, condoned or enabled whatever form it takes.
I regret the necessity to say this, but people put up with, pay for and support abuse of power on a daily basis in a variety of ways-
Most that have them, wouldn't estranged their devices, their streaming services and applications, all which abusively take advantage of user information and create segues in user interfacing that use up data that customers finance-
rosecarmel -- I grapple with many concepts of dysfunctional thinkers/abusers/Narcissists because their 'logic' is so far from reality they literally cannot "see" or handle the truth.
Like you hear some EP's say, "All 4 of my kids have cut me off and taken my grandchildren as well! They say I'm abusive but they are all scapegoating me!" OR Four out of four of your kids see you as the 'problem' and so long as you keep blaming them? Get used to estrangement...
Another oddity of whether or not abusers "know" they are abusive is my mom could describe dysfunctional thinking quite clearly, employ said 'thinking' and then say, "But I am not like 'that'..." Such an odd form of preemptive gas-lighting. It didn't matter the circumstances or facts, I always felt like if there was a negative way to interpret a situation? That was her "go to" position. Always assume I am 'wrong'.
Then as the victim, you are left to 'prove' to your abuser that their chronic negative view of you is all because of their tainted perceptions of you and not based on anything you actually DID. And once an abuser believes something? THAT is now 'reality' and you as their victim had better make them feel 'better' for having "made them" act the way they did.
Again, it's one thing when adults play these head games on each other, but a minor child BELIEVES their loving 'parent' when they say, "I'm not doing 'that'... It's all in your head."
HH, in other words she didn't challenge you- She set out to prove she was right all the time, never swaying from her negative view of you with laser-like precision-
It's not uncommon- And I don't say that to minimize your suffering- The world is filled with people ready to peg others as something they're not, especially as "less than"-
Another "common theme" I just love is the, "I don't want my EAC back in my life the way they are now." Yes, because your 'child' grew up and now wants to be treated like AN ADULT. Just like all you 'parents' grew up and gained your 'adult status' and demand respect as such.
Equality to an abusive personality/some EP's, is like sun-light to a vampire. "Equality" means your Adult Child can/is allowed to treat you the way you treat them, which IS normal and healthy. After all, if you are non-abusive and don't hold double-standards, are not unduly critical, abusive etc. Why is "equality" such a scary concept to some?
Answer: Because "equality" means that the abuser doesn't just get to decide 'reality' unilaterally. Like, "I was a 'good' parent." Or, "I loved you! I 'supported' You! I never abused you! I tried SOOO hard to be a 'good' mom!"
Me -- "Well trying isn't succeeding is it." That is a message abuse victims are taught well.
HH, what you say in your last paragraph is what I was thinking as I read through your post. Not that anyone should abuse or gaslight anyone else, but a child can't even recognize gaslighting or if they suspect something's wrong, can't put a name to it. An adult may see it after a while and throw it off (even if it's hard), but a little child cannot.
Oh, looks like we cross-posted, HH. I was talking about your last paragraph in the post before the one you just wrote.
It depends why an EP says they don't want their AC back in their life "the way they are now".
When there was once a good relationship and the EP finds themselves cut out because their AC has changed since for example getting married, and being influenced by their partner, it's understandable that they don't want to put themselves in a position of being hurt again.
If you are non abusive and don't hold double standards, are not unduly cruel critical, abusive etc. Why is equality such a scary concept to some?
I'm not sure it would be a scary concept to someone who isn't abusive.
When an AC estranges despite the healthy childhood they had, because they have 'changed' and no longer treats their parent(s) the way they were treated, any equality in that relationship is lost.
Sadly some adults just don't seem to be able to recognize that the relationship(s) they are in is abusive, or if they do, are unable to free themselves. That can be because they were abused as a child, seeing their own relationship as 'normal', or are being controlled and manipulated to the extent that they end up with a skewed view of past relationships.
Smilesless, I think the idea of an unchanging self is a theory- I can understand it, discuss it but not buy into the proverb that leopards spots are static- That's not to say they've not got spots- But that it's possible the concept of immovable spots might serve a purpose in the healing process and offer a sense of steady protection when they're identified as stuck-
A cycle can begin long before it manifests as undoubtedly noticeable- Look at bipolar in men, for example, how they think it begins in their early 20s- If one had no idea what's happening to that man he could be considered abusive rather than displaying symptoms of an illness-
I agree rosecarmel that it's not necessarily true that a 'leopard can't change its spots' and I can see that that belief could hinder the possibility of reconciliation where there's estrangement.
The fear whether real or imagined that someone can't or wont change however, and there'll be a repetition of the behaviour that resulted in the estrangement may be enough to prevent it from ever taking place.
Your point about bipolar in men is an interesting one. I know very little about it but wouldn't that manifest over an extended period of time or could it manifest in just a few months?
It's not what I expected, when parents don't want reconsiliation, and when they do it doesn't seem like it goes very well. It's so odd when I get told here to reconsile but no evidence it ever works out. I suppose if I reached out it would be the worst decision, I'd have to be the only one responsible for things breaking down and then be punished severely x
Smileless, there's an abundance of information about the onset of bipolar in young men-
Yennifer, someone making amends would be responsible for seeking out and addressing the people they harmed, reach an understanding and then going their separate ways- Maybe move forward towards reconciliation-
Reconciliation is ongoing and involves repeatedly dealing with individuals that harmed you and likely you them- It's hard work-
Reconciliation is akin to recovery- Its not just one step, it's lifelong-
Indefinite or permanent estrangement on the other hand is, I think, resolve- It stings to begin with, then it's full speed ahead-
I've already apologised for things I haven't even actually done. Mother never. So I'd have to be the really the wrong one to reconsile, can't do that. You're right I think rosecarmel x
You gave her the opportunity, Yennifer ..
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