The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.

EP -- "Our estranged children’s birthday is more important to us than it is to them."

Well there is some truth 'out there'. This is something I understand well. My attitude/dysfunctional thinking prior to recovery was, "Please don't 'celebrate' Me. I don't deserve it/celebration. Someone else must be more worthy of 'that' then Me."

Birthdays are some of the worst memories for Me of child-hood. But of course, "Look at the pictures! Look at the parties I had for You! Look at everything I 'did' including birthing You so You could have this 'special day'!"

Yes, I should look and act 'happy' because the one day of the year that an abused child thinks, "Maybe 'today', out of the other 364 days of the year, everyone will be nice to Me." And then reality occurs - the Narcissistic/abusive parent(s).

My 'mom' only held birthday parties for her kids because to not would make her "look bad" as a parent to 'outsiders'. Birthdays and parties and gifts are all huge manipulative tools of abusers and as an abused child, Your 'birthday' is their favorite day. "Look at all I 'did' for You! And you are still ungrateful?!?!"

It doesn't matter is the 'party' was what the child wanted/was interested in (victims have no 'feelings' in the thought process of an abuser) and all the child/victim should understand/'appreciate' is the 'effort' that the parent/abuser "did".

So I do have to snicker a little when I hear EP's reporting that their child didn't 'care' about their birthday and fail to respond when they reach out on their child's birthday. No Contact AC have had enough ruined 'special days'. That's why the "No Contact".

issendai.com/wp/estrangement/why-wont-they-thank-us-for-the-gifts-they-told-us-not-to-send/

Oh wow! That's crazy! Yes, mother only tries to contact me on occasions she can make everything about her! Never on a random other day with nothing going on. She always ruined my birthdays and Christmases and she still tries x

In the first 2 or 3 years of our estrangement our ES's birthday was always particularly difficult. Memories of birthday's passed especially when he was a child, would bring a mixture of happiness and sorrow.

I know it's not the same for everyone but for me the passage of time has helped the healing process and now his birthday is more or less just another day.

Counsellors and/or therapists often suggest to EP's that they send cards for birthdays and Christmas to their EAC.

An abusive EP may do this with gifts as well as they're unable to relinquish the control they once had over their child and are making a point that they are still around.

A non abusive EP, and this has been the case for EP's that I've interacted with over the years, does so in the hope that this time, they'll get a response, an acknowledgement however small that may be the tiniest step forward to possible reconciliation.

I've known cases where an EP has been sending cards for years, more than 20 in a couple of instances. Never hearing anything back but never losing hope that maybe this time, they will.

EP's often feel they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. An EAC may feel nothing but irritation, or something a lot stronger, when a birthday or Christmas card drops through the letter box.

On the other hand that not happening, may be interpreted by the EAC as 'see they never loved me; can't even be bothered to remember my birthday'.

No Contact AC have had enough ruined 'special days'. That's why the No Contact

Not all no contact AC. The ones with unhealthy abusive childhoods yes, but some EAC had loving and healthy childhoods.

I think if someone asks you for no contact you just have to respect that Smileless2012, even if it's hard. Maybe at the beginning let them know that you will respect their need for space and you will always be thinking of them then they have that in writing. My counsellor would advise the opposite. Counsellors are people with their own takes on things as well. Maybe an EC that doesn't get a card is more likely to reach out if they feel upset by not getting anything. For me getting things is just proof my feelings and needs aren't being respected x

Oh boy ... Birthday celebrations .. Pure torture for introverted kids .. There's video that exists of a family member as a child, sitting in a lawn chair, wrapped in a towel, staring out of saucer wide eyes at the other children laughing, splashing and having a good time ..

Always the loner, and still is, incredibly themselves and independent-

Society goes through phases of what behavior is healthy and acceptable and what isn't- And it messes with people's heads, maybe for the sake of progress?

When someone is talking, in person or not, can you determine if the person speaking simply needs to be heard and understood or if they're trying to convince you not only that they're right but that you should think what they think too?

I mentioned the above because it might be an abuse cycle, mild or severe-

I agree Yennifer, we don't contact our ES at all, never sent a birthday or Christmas card in more than 7 years, but it is something that some counsellors and therapists recommend.

I wonder if some ACs just stop replying, if they haven't asked for no contact, that's probably different? x

If an AC hasn't estranged and hasn't said they don't want any contact, to just stop replying would be a very cruel thing to do.

Probably best to give some sort of closure if the intent is to estrang but might just be not replying for a while not trusting themselves not to say something that makes things worse. Probably depends x

Lol although my best friend says that I should stop trying to see the best in everyone x

I don't see how there can be anything worse for any parent then to be met with a wall of silence. God knows, receiving a hand written note from your son telling you you are no longer a part of his and his child's life is bad enough, but to be told nothing, and be unable to get any answers must be far worse.

Same goes when your parent doesn't communicate and you're sitting right next to them- A wall is a wall is a wall ..

Smileless -- This is one of the huge divides in the estrangement debate. Abusive EP's and self-proclaimed 'good' EP's say the same things. So how can anyone determine which EP's are unjustly estranged versus abusive parents who are very much the cause of their estrangement?

Most EAC try many different methods to try to improve the relationship with the offender before walking way/No Contact. The fact of the matter is, I have read threads where multiple EP's said, "Well, I saw 'signs' that my child was unhappy etc. but I didn't think it would lead to estrangement." So there is some acknowledgment that their child DID make an effort to improve/change the situation and also the truth of, "Yeah, I knew what I was saying/doing wasn't being 'received well' but instead of modifying my behavior, because I've always 'gotten away with it', I'll just keep doing what I always do because to change would be an admission I was maybe 'wrong' which is dangerously close to an apology."

Then when the AC realizes that not only is the 'parent' not going to change and finally stand-up to/"become 'disrespectful'" to the parent/expect and want to be treated like an equal adult, the abuse/'power play' becomes worse.

So, the AC realizes, "The more I expect to be treated the way THEY demand to be treated, the crappier they treat Me." And the subtle message/undertone of how the Scapegoat child is treated is finally 'recognized' by the abused child.

So whether AC explain like they did to an EP who said, "I’ve shared before about the first time we went to counseling with ES/DIL (and the history leading up to that), and how we were blindsided by their 10-theme, 11-page list of our (mostly my) supposed offenses toward them." OR We walk away without saying anything... The result is the same...

"We don't know why We are estranged!" or the, "It's the 'evil son/daughter in law'." but never, "Yeah, I got an 11 page letter and there was a lot of truth in it. I can see some of their points and given the scope and length? There is a lot of 'hurt' there. As a loving parent, IF my child believes I was the one that caused their pain, real/perceived/influenced or otherwise, I want to get to the root of the issue of what caused them to send me 11 pages of grievances."

It doesn't matter what 'side' you are on, everyone who is an expert on estrangement knows the 'standard' EP response to the No Contact message... IT is all "lies" or insert all the other 'justifications' of why the child(ren) are 'wrong' in what they said...

Yes, a wall is a wall rosecarmel.

I'm in no better position to determine which EP's are unjustly estranged than you are Holyhannah. Likewise neither of us can determine which EAC have 'justly' estranged their parents.

You make constant references to the things you have read that EP's say, the majority of which cast EP's in a bad light, but without providing the source of your information.

My knowledge comes from my personal experience and from the experiences of other EP's that I've interacted with here, and on sites for EP's. There are often too many similarities to be mere coincidences.

It's insulting to say "everyone who is an expert on estrangement knows the 'standard' EP response to the No Contact message...IT is all "lies"". Sometimes it is all lies. Any 'expert' on estrangement if they're worth their salt knows that estrangement is sometimes due to a third party, peer influence, mental health issues or drug and alcohol abuse.

EAC don't have the monopoly of truth or pain and suffering; EP's/EGP's experience those too.

We didn't receive "11 pages of grievances" we received a 4 page email of bile, bitterness and anger. The memory which right now is making my hands shake and tying my stomach in knots.

Had we been given something to work with, we'd have moved heaven and earth to avoid our estrangement, to avoid losing our son and only GC.

When we were asked to give them space we did. When we were told to wait until they contacted us to see them and our GC, we waited but the contact never came.

No doubt you'll continue with your posts the majority of which seek to portray all EP's as the villain but do not presume that your blinkered view of EP's relates in any way to me or Mr. S.

I have empathy for you and any EAC who posts here of their pain and is brave enough to speak of the abuse they have endured. It would be nice if you did the same with EP's; acknowledged their suffering through no fault of their own and stopped tarring us all with the 'evil parent' brush.

Very well said Smileless - there is no one size fits all in the estrangement situation and for anyone to suggest that is disingenuous, manipulative and controlling in itself in my opinion.

Pantglas what's needed is mutual acceptance, belief, respect, understanding and compassion.

medium.com/@bethbruno2015/is-estrangement-always-the-parents-fault-fa4aa0c33631

If, as the child gets older, they do not update their story, they can react from their rehearsed narrative of the situation and not from the truth.

It's a short article-

That is a very interesting article rosecàrmel providing a balanced range of possibilities around estrangement. The Yes, No, Maybe options allow for the many many different circumstances that bring about estrangement

Any 'expert' on estrangement if they're worth their salt knows that estrangement is sometimes due to a third party, peer influence, mental health issues or drug and alcohol abuse.

Smileless Very true!

Nobody knew the impact that some prescription drugs would have on anyone, including minors and young adults that were prescribed medications for various types of pain-

People trusted doctors, what they chose to prescribe and pharmacists because they were the experts- We now know that didn't turn out well-

Estrangement can alleviate some of the pain but doesn't treat the underlying causes-

Love issendai

An informative and helpful article rosecarmel; thanks for the link.

I've just googled that Hithere and can see why you "love" it.