What EP's need to hear from a fellow Estranged Parent.

"The thread is about estrangement."

The article is about accountability-

Smileless pointed out that it can take years for the impacts of past traumas to manifest- Defensiveness is on the list of manifestations and first on the list in the article-

Addicts are encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions on their path to recovery- If one were to consider defensiveness a drug, who would be responsible to overcome it? The parent or their child that estranged them?

One more question:

Why aren't estranged children bashing the parent that wrote the article?

I don't think I said anything about human beings being Dysfunctional or Not being Dysfunctional.

What I said was getting into an abusive relationship happens all too easily.

If you doubt that spend some time in a Women's Refuge or on their Help Line.

Of course if we are lucky enough to get through our own childhood unscathed and emerge as perfect young adults with all our parenting skill well honed we are ahead in the parenting stakes.

Then if we are "Emotionally Intelligent" enough we will be sure to pick a life partner and future parent for our children who also managed the feat of getting through their childhood unscathed with all their parenting skill well honed we really are on to a winner.

Life will be perfect and our children will never have anything to complain about.

It's not like that.

If that were the case there would be an awful lot of damaged single people and not as many children as there wouldn't have been as many relationships because we would all have avoided those pit falls.

And what do we do when we have a 'Good Enough" life partner/co-parent and something happens that changes them? Or changes us. Who do we Bash then???

Which parent do we allow the child to bash and blame then?

The one that's changed by illness, life events, accidents or the parent that's left to pick up the pieces and do their best to hold it all together?

Do we "blame" that parent because they couldn't deliver life to the child the way it was?

I never said we as parents shouldn't apologise, of course we should.

If we want our relationship with our children to be a respectful one we should listen and hear. Then be sorry, say sorry for where we got it wrong.

We need to change what can be changed and make such reparation as is possible to our children.

But as humans we get things wrong, we have issues, PTSD, stress, illness, accidents, unhelpful behaviours sometimes out and out bad parenting patterns.

If we care we will be willing to find and own our failings.

But our children, when they are Adult Children "May Be" need to acknowledge that as wrong as we got it we did the best we could with what we had at the time.

We as human beings and parents can not live up to a child's "Fantasy Parent" and some times our human self isn't good enough for the child.

Some AC never allow their real human parent be good enough.

That is one of the choices some Adult Children make.

It hurts when that is the AC choice.

It really hurts when all the Listening, Hearing, Apologies and ways to change have been gone though by the parents and STLL the Adult Child chooses to keep the Estrangement in place.

None of this is about abrogation responsibility.

Nor is it about parents taking the stance that as the parent (one up position) and their child (one down position) treating you anyway I want and you (child) and have to lump it.

That's as damaging as Adult Children Not being will to accept that their parents are humans first and as humans we get things wrong.

I will Not accept that ALL the FAUT and BLAME MUST ALWAYS be on the shoulder of the parent.

Just to clarify, I am not in this position. DD2's estrangement lasted less that a year and that was over 10 years ago. We have never been estranged from DD1 SIL or DGD, separated when they lived in NZ but always in contact.

My passion for this subject is because I have worked with some very willing parents and their AC.

I have seen the flip side of when AC won't be Adults but wish to be "Persecutors" who can now severely punish their parents.

Adult Children make choices too.

I am forever grateful that I am now retired, from clinical work, from tutoring and from volunteering because there are some people I just want to tell to "Get Real".

So for all of you living with this very painful situation you have my Empathy and some of you have my Sympathy and Compassion. May your situation resolve or you find a kind of peace that helps you deal with life.

Oh and just for balance I have also worked with parents and AC who have resolved and reconciled. Not easy for anyone but very worthwhile.

It's good to know that you've found a way forward with your relationship with your D allsortsofbags and she is both willing and able to apply adult understanding to her own situation as well as yours and your DH's.

An excellent second post.

I was thinking today about a conversation we had with our boys when they were both younger, about not talking to strangers, going off with someone they didn't know etc.

It's difficult to try and help them to keep themselves safe without frightening them and giving them nightmares. We told them that not everyone's nice and our youngest, who we are now estranged from said 'oh you mean like the child catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang'.

We said yes like him but he looks mean and a bit scary but not everyone does, so you can't tell just by looking at someone.

Adult abusers ensnare their future partner/husband/wife by appearing 'normal', and often their future partners' family too.
Coercive control and manipulation doesn't happen over night, it takes time. The gradual erosion of the 'victims' other relationships with family and friends through lies is a primary factor.

Abusers isolate their 'victim' from those they perceive as a threat to their ultimate goal. They don't want anyone to see what they're doing and alert their victim to what's really going on.

So it's ridiculous to assume that an adult who was raised in a functional and non abusive family will always be able to recognise dysfunction and abusive tendencies, so those that find themselves coerced must have been raised by dysfunctional and abusive parents.

Persecutor is how it feels to me. I agree @allsortsofbags and @smileless2012 great posts.

allsortsofbags Two excellent posts.

I too have considerable experience of working with families/parents/children/AC and you express very well the considerations on all sides of these relationships.

Thankyou

Smileless A good point in your last post

""I have seen the flip side of when AC won't be Adults but wish to be "Persecutors" who can now severely punish their parents. ""

I agree- After all avenues have been exhausted by the parent, a child's position can remain immovable- The point is that the parent had reason to exhaust all avenues to begin with- And then did so because it was their responsibility to do so-

It isn't a flip side- It's just one possible outcome-

I work with children and I can spot problems at home very easily! So many parents aren't aware of how much stress and anxiety little children go through. The very large upsurge of anxious, angry and stressed out children I had on my hands today was very upsetting x

Yennifer, I can't imagine-

""Oh and just for balance I have also worked with parents and AC who have resolved and reconciled. Not easy for anyone but very worthwhile.""

Agree-

rosecarmel, schools close Friday but will stay open for children of key workers like NHS staff, police and people in food shops etc. We will also be open for children whose families are under social services because we are a safe space for those children too and at the front line of protecting children from harm from abusive parents x

Unhappy Parent -- "After visit with gd I started getting a runny nose and not feeling to good so texted es to check on their house he said fine , a few more days passed and today he texted asking if the mall i worked at was closed , I responded no only hours changed and how were he and the family…he responded ok. Then something came over me and I texted back I am ok too thanks for asking!!! I know he doesnt care how i am but i did it anyway"

That is the sort of things some parents do and then they don't get why their behavior drives their Adult Children away. Whatever the 'parents' do is justified and excusable. She could have chosen a mature and rational reaction, like none at all... Instead she created drama. If she keeps going down that road, next she'll be complaining because she's not allowed to see her grand-child. But she didn't do anything wrong...

"I have seen the flip side of when AC won't be Adults but wish to be "Persecutors" who can now severely punish their parents." -- Reaping what was sown... The parents planted the dysfunctional seed and got a monster that destroyed their home. Now they are complaining about being 'homeless'.

Asking that parents be held accountable is not "parent bashing". And if it is, then perhaps parents should stop 'bashing' AC who are explaining, "You may SAY you have 'listened and apologized etc' but given all the other dysfunctional thought process I see in these comments, I doubt that that is the case."

If some can't handle myself and others' pointing out dysfunctional thinking without actually reflecting, how likely is it you'll 'listen' when your own child tries to broach sensitive topics?

Yennifer, I'm certain your service is appreciated-

By child and adult alike ..

The way things are pointed out makes a big difference!

Exactly Madgran.

Disagreeing with what is said isn't the same as not listening. You have to have listened to know what you're disagreeing with.

I thought the article was very gentle? Did I miss something? x

The article is gentle - But no matter the presentation of the same information, it appears the response to it will also remain the same, no matter how the response is presented-

I agree about the article Yennifer but some of the responses on this thread have been far from gentle.

Yes I do see what you mean rosecarmel. Also everyone is under a lot of stress these days x

I was a bit cross when I first came to gransnet but lately very calm and settled, I've learnt a lot here from all the information posted x

As for being accused of "parent bashing" Estranged Parents or not understanding their pain etc.

I absolutely feel for the EP who wrote the article. I choked up reading what she said. If ever an EP must be hurting, it must be the EP like her that 'gets' she was the author of her family story and her child didn't "like the book".

Her realization that, while the steps she needed to take were difficult, they were steps toward healthier thinking and any hope of reconciliation. It is far easier to move from, "I think I am a worthless/useless person." like I did then, "I'm a great and wonderful parent! I loved my kids and did my best!" to, "I might have thought I was doing well, but my child, the only one who can truly evaluate my parenting, disagrees."

Her shift of thinking is a much more difficult challenge then my journey and she deserves credit for being a unicorn. Even other EP's discredit her because she isn't agreeing with their dysfunctional thinking.

Yennifer and rosecarmel -- Issendai has been quoted many times on the "how to deliver a message to parents the 'right way'." and her conclusion on the way to deliver messages contrary what the parent wants to hear is to, "Never say 'it' at all."

There is no "delivery method" that 'works'. It's like the 11 page explanation letter... "ALL lies." Not one single point of truth... I would think like a broken clock, an 11 page letter was correct at least twice. And of course that doesn't demonstrate black and white thinking. "There is one (or more) points I disagree with." now becomes, "It's ALL lies."

And then the chorus of other EP's, "I got an 'all lie' letter too! They exist!" Me -- "That's interesting since most EP's claim all estrangement situations are different and yet on your end there is consistency in reviving the 'all lie letter'. When I point out the consistency with which EP's get a letter and call it "all lies" as opposed to, "I got a letter and my 'child' had some valid points..." it is ignored."

Dysfunctional thinkers shift standards all the time. Just like there are 'rules' for betters and lessers. And because I truly understand 'both sides' I continue to wrestle with do they "know" what they do/how they behave?

www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/matter-personality/201411/parents-cut-adult-children-clueless

I think there is a responsibility if engaging in forums such as this and responding to people who have shared their pain and their story, to express oneself honestly, be constructively critical, to suggest things for people to consider which might be painful for them, but to always do it in a way that is not accusatory. Possibilities can be suggested for consideration without cutting someone with the mirror! I apply that to all posters, whatever "group" they may be in.

Therapy and Counselling supports people to come to their own conclusions about their situation and people drawing their own conclusions is the best form of learning and channel for change.

Reading peoples stories can make us draw conclusions and make assumptions but how we express those is crucial in helping each other to consider our situations and to learn. The way the original article is written is a perfect example of very well expressed, non accusatory but strongly described reality!

The original article is also powerful and is also a perfect example of someone who has been through a process of having a mirror held up to consider her own accountability in the situation she and her family have found themselves. The point is the mirror was clear enough for her, did not cut her so badly that it made her step away again, she kept on looking, she hurt but she coped and she learned. The writer acknowledges that her readers may not be there yet, and that is ok ....that people are on different stages of a journey. We are all at different stages aren't we.

Sometimes the mirrors being held up to others on this virtual forum are so cracked, sharp and jagged that posters who have shared their story cannot look at the reflection in any meaningful way. What is the point of that mirror??

Ofcourse, I suppose how one posts also depends on ones motivation for posting atall . Is it to help other posters to look at their situation, is it to just tell someone ones story, is it to get rid of ones own anger , is it to find out more, is it to share knowledge and expertise that might be useful to others, is it to share pain, to talk to others with similar experiences, to get attention? Who knows, I expect we all have different motivations.

But I think whatever our motivations, we all have the same responsibility on how we post. And to never pick up a smashed, cracked jagged mirror, hold it up and then hold it up again and again, when the person being reflected is just being cut to shreds and learning nothing!!! If they cant see the reflection, shouting louder, waving the mirror harder wont work,; the mirror needs polishing! They need help to notice a tiny corner of the mirror where a bit of them is reflected!!