What EP's need to hear from a fellow Estranged Parent.

You're right HH recovery does teach you "to see the waterfowl for what it is and not what it pretends to be/is pretending to be".

I know all about recovery, having recovered from abuse in my own childhood. I also know about being an EP, something that with all due respect, you know nothing about.

We all know that love is unconditional in a healthy family, however that only seems to be stated when an assumption or accusation is being made about EP's.

What about the EAC who was raised in a healthy family? Where is their unconditional love when they estrange themselves and often take away their children too?

"and I have no wish to jeopardise their relationship with their mum. I can be found if my grandchildren wish to find me". Nothing "grandiose" about that all and no evidence that no wonder the EC in this case "fled to a better life".

That demonstrates the desire of a GP not to damage the relationship their AC has with their child(ren), even though the mother may well have damaged, and at least prevented her child(ren's) relationhip with their GM.

Are you all bonkers?!!!

Bridie I think some would like to think we are, but they couldn't be more wrong.

Didn't mean to incude you....all this amateur pyscology is very annoying on what is a very individual and hurtful subject.

Spelling!!!!!aargh

I know and I didn't think you had Bridie. Unfortunately when it comes to estrangement there are a lot of sweeping statements and judgements made especially about EP's from non EP's and EAC who were abused in childhood.

I have the unfortunate experience of having been abused in childhood and estranged by one of our sons. I understand that one size doesn't fit all in either case.

If estrangement isn't about the psychology of a situation, what's it about? Families don't break down for no reason at all, theres always a reason x

I think it's the blinkered amateur psychologists that some of us have an issue with Yennifer, in particular the ones who always lay the 'blame' at the door of the EP.

Yes I was a victim too, so I havent ever felt like I would invalidate them. After we left the abusive relationship they had play therapy and I thought things were ok.

I didnt expect them to make me happy, but I thought I could make them happy and feel disappointed its not the case. Its useful to discuss this.

You are right, all the MH problems and eating problems do seem to point to it- but adolescent mental health were involved and it didnt help, so I dont know what I could have done?

Ahhh I am still reading some of these replies. Thanks to everyone who has responded.

No. I havent told AC how I feel. As I already said, last year my eldest AC estranged and I am trying to avoid the same thing. So, I came here to discuss it calmly so I can respond to AC whenI have worked out how.

Well yes I did have a dysfunctional upbringing and got married very young to an abusive man when I didn't know any better. It was like going from the frying pan into the fire and I did stay with him for many years because my self esteem was very low and I thought I deserved the bad treatment and that I couldn't cope on my own.

I did have help eventually to leave, from my Ds's teacher who found out what was happening. The teacher persuaded me to leave and would have involved Social services if I didn't. We receieved help and support from a domestic violence charity and started again in a new area.

I thought I was doing the right thing but I really can't escape from the repercussions. If I had stayed with abusive ex we would probably have lost the kids... I put them first and have done my best ( but it hasnt been good enough)

While I have done my best, the abusive ex has danced in and out of their lives inconsistently and told lies about me. They seem not to give him trouble, but take all their blame out on me. It all seems so unfair and I am not going to say anything until I get this all in perspective and have a clear way forwards. I don't want to make anything worse...

I would recommend counselling to anyone usually but we are in a strange old scenario at the moment aren't we? x

Bearing in mind that adolescent mental health were involved I don't see what else you could have done Lavazzal. Issues stemming from childhood experiences can take years to present themselves so it's understandable that for a time you thought things were OK, especially as the children received play therapy after you'd left your abusive relationship.

Going through a long period of low self esteem and the belief that the bad treatment you received was deserved is a common theme that we see often see expressed by abused AC here on GN.

Starting again with your children, even with the help and support of a domestic violence charity took courage. There are sadly many cases of women who were in your position, and despite the help they are given, return to their abuser, despite in some cases knowing they could lose their children as a result.

I understand that it "seems so unfair" for your children to blame you and hold you responsible while seemingly not seeing the part that their abusive father played in this very sad situation, together with lies he's told them about their mother.

I don't know if you've ever had counselling for yourself, for the abuse you endured as a child and then as an adult from your partner. If you have in the past, it may be something you could consider doing again.

Doing so may help you get everything in perspective and help you find a way forward for you and your children.

Ive had psychotherapy for the abuse I suffered, thanks. I was only talking about it to explain the background.

Im just at a loss right now to know what to say to DS. If I accept his aggression, Im living in an abusive relationship again. In the past he has lashed out at his brother who I have no previously mention as well as my DH. Understandably, neither of them want to confront him. It just upsets me that he's taking after his Dad and he does remind me of him in some of his behaviours.

More than anything I want him to accept help. But past experience has shown he is likely to get angry if I suggest counselling. I am considering looking into mediation, if he will accept that.

Yes Yennifer, we are!
Thanks Smileless for saying issues can take years to present themself.

It does indeed seem that a lot of abused women return to their abuser. I saw it happen with some of the women I met through the DV charity. These men can be very controlling and also charismatic. They know the weak spots...

I got an injunction, learned how to know the difference between a good man and an abusive one thanks to the DV charity. Then I met my current DH and have been with him for 20 years now. He has brought up the kids and willingly given up much to help me bring them up.

"I think it's the blinkered amateur psychologists that some of us have an issue with Yennifer, in particular the ones who always lay the 'blame' at the door of the EP."

The article is about parental accountability -

To explain the duck/goose analogy. Person A -- A duck (and dysfunctional thinker) Person B -- A goose (also a dysfunctional thinker but different 'issue') and Me.

Person A -- "I think/believe I'm a goose because being a duck (displaying dysfunctional behaviors) is 'bad'. Rather then see/accept that I act like a duck can we just agree I'm a goose?"

Me -- "No because in order to get healthy you need to be a happy quacking duck and even if you find other ducks, that believe like you that they too are geese, doesn't make you or your 'flock' into geese. Yelling that you are 'healthy and recovered' while being a quacking duck that wants to be called a goose doesn't work on me."

Person B -- "I am duck because I'm quacking like one and I say I am a duck."

Me -- "Nope. You're still a goose even if you are quacking and calling yourself a duck. You can't gas-light me into seeing you as a duck."

Looking into mediation is a good idea Lavazza1, it may be something your son would consider as it can feel less intimidating.

Thanks Smileless, I havent mentioned anything to him yet. In a way I'm almost enjoying his silence because he cant put me down or verbally abuse if he isnt talking to me....

But I probably will mention it when it feels right....

The thread is about estrangement.

I can understand that Lavazza sometimes silence is preferable when any verbal contact ends up in abuse.

I've only read the first 2 pages so apologies if this has already been mentioned but I'm not liking some of the "Blame" that is creeping in here.

I am not estranged from my AC or DGD but I was from DD2 for a while, it's awful and hurt like hell.

We reconciled when she decided to end her marriage and when it all shook down we did have some things to talk about.

Biggest one was how stressful she found it with her dad being in Gulf War 1 and how he was different towards her after that. She felt abandoned by him - psychologically she was - and her boyfriend then husband found all the buttons to press (her words). She was understanding as a Child. Now she is willing to apply Adult understanding to her and our situation - we are very, very lucky. She still feels the abandonment but there is no 'blame"

Other factors (FACTS) it worth considering ...

1) any child is a combination of both parents so may be there is the possibility that the EAC"s thinking, feeling MH, behaviours etc are influenced by inherited traits as well as learned behaviour and childhood trauma?

After all we accept we as parents come with inherited as well as learned behaviour that affects our children. We can always be the parent our children want.

2) Straight Transactional Analysis but here's an other factor (Fact) for consideration ...

When we humans are in a difficult, traumatic, abusive situation we most probably we won't be in our "ADULT" (A) ego state or even are "PARENT" (P) ego state. The 2 grown up ego states with lots of information, strength and problem solving abilities etc.

So irrespective of how old we are, who we are responsible for, what we are required to "DO" in a painful, stressful, dangerous situation "We" are most likely in our "CHILD" (C) ego state.

Therefore, we can only do the best we can AT THAT TIME with what we have available to us.

This is not a cop out, it's a significant factor.

So saying we as parents are "responsible" (we are) for taking care of our children (we are) is one statement (I don't have a problem with).

However lashing out, blaming, shaming and being overly critical of ourselves and others for the parents we were is Not Helpful for Healing.

The people we are today are almost certainly wiser, less stressed, have fewer competing people and things to juggle than the Parents we were when our children were young.

With hindsight, reading, therapy, GN we can see, hear, learn "Where, How we might have been able to "DO" things differently in the HOPE of a better outcome.

We Did the best we could with what we had at the time.

I have NEVER had anyone say "I set out to do the worst job I could at bringing up my children".

So please stop Parent bashing.

Also getting into in a relationship with an abusive partner happens all too easily.

Being in that situation often leaves the outside looking grown-up working from the (C) ego state with only child like options available.

Anyone who gets out of an abusive relationship has already done a massive amount of hard, self work.

Never belittle that FACT.

What the children from that situation are left with varies but everyone is scared and will carry pain. Our children don't have a monopoly on damage, we may have been and still are damaged Children before we were parents.

Truly Adult Children who want to heal will work at accepting that reality. (I don't want to say FACT it's too inflexible and de-humanises us)

I agree that playing the "my pain V your pain game" isn't going to get people very far. However, I don't think it is constructive JUST to lay all the BLAME on EP.

Clearly EP being open to See, Hear, Understand the contribution they made to the estrangement Knowingly or Unknowingly and then be willing to addressing their contribution offers the best chance of reconciliation.

Not all EP are offered that chance even if they have done lots of work and have grown in many ways from the parent the AC cut off.

AC make choices. They may be made from pain. anger, resentment, MH issues or what they have decided is "Best for them".

Sometimes We Never got to fully understand the why's wherefores, the who's. The best we humans can do - is the best we can do and then show some respect for the journey another person is on.

Also getting into in a relationship with an abusive partner happens all too easily.

I respectfully disagree.
Getting into in a relationship with an abusive partner happens all too easily - to a dysfunctional individual.

A healthy individual on meeting an abusive partner will dump them straight away.

Again the hostility toward posts of well know mental health facts because they are inconvenient to your narrative of "it take two".

The AC will: cave in, or go no contact against this utter denial - the only the choice, for them, to put up, or, shut up.

Dysfunctional families never accept responsibility.

Dysfunctional families keep secrets.

Dysfunctional families argue. All the time. About everything.

Dysfunctional families treat children like adults.

Dysfunctional families are breeding grounds for abuse.

If you and your spouse fight with one another in front of your kids using fists or words or both — that is emotional abuse.

If you withhold love from your children because you are too self-absorbed to spend time with them — that is emotional abuse.

Children can suffer from all sorts of different mental health issues, from mild depression and anxiety all the way up to acute psychosis. Adults, of course, can suffer from these problems as well. The difference is that a child’s mental health problems are almost always a reflection of the dysfunction in which they live.

This...
medium.com/the-mission/here-are-5-unbelievably-toxic-things-good-parents-never-do-1fc3477657c

After all is said and done, if you are a parent who has been put off by your child's therapist holding you accountable in any way, please keep in mind that the purpose of accountability is not to judge you, but to help you recognize your personal power and influence as a parent.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/promoting-empathy-your-teen/201407/when-parents-blame-their-children

Common sense post allsortsofbags.

Estranged Parents are not experts on estrangement, they are experts at being estranged.

EP -- ""I’m sure many of you here like me have gone on to websites or read books on reconciliation. I’ve read online stories written by therapists who have dealt with adult children who’ve estranged from their parents. I’ve read stories of therapists who had adult children who had estranged from them. Everything I read says the same thing. If there is going to be reconciliation with a child who has estranged from you, you the parent have to make the first move and the first step is to apologize. Even if you don’t feel you’ve done anything wrong, supposedly you have done something wrong to hurt your child otherwise they wouldn’t go no contact with you. I’m simply amazed that with the exception of this wonderful forum, that is always the answer given for reconciliation."

So other then a bunch of EP's in isolation, EVERYONE says, "You need to listen without defending yourself hear and acknowledge your child's pain and apologize sincerely for hurt you caused them, otherwise reconciliation is not possible." and yet most EP's scream that THAT is not the way... And they remain estranged.

mylittlecorneroflife.com/2020/03/02/estrangement-professionals-experts-stop-it/

EP's are 'right' and everyone else is 'wrong'.

We used to argue a lot when our older kids were little. Both come from abusive childhoods. We have worked hard to heal ourselves and our marriage is very strong now. Never any raised voices. Will undoing the damage to ourselves and our relationship undo our children's hurt from that time that we didn't understand we were doing? I hope so but I know if not then it's our fault. My kids grew up for a long time with me tolerating abusive behaviour from mother I didn't understand was abusive or the problems it ws causing. Our kids are turning into decent adults one by one, no anxiety or depression or other visible issues. So I hope so but if there are issues, it's our fault and our responsibility to fix it. No one is born broken x