The 'Perception Filter'...

TBH I'd prefer it if you didn't say anything else to me MotherofDragons. Maybe I should be flattered that you appear to take such an interest in my story but I'm finding it rather tedious so wont be responding to you again.

I have not forgotten them or those who were responsible for saying them

No, I bet you haven’t.

But you have no problem forgetting what you and your friends (Yogagirl, for example) say. In fact, you just pretend like it never happened.

Oh no, no, no MotherofDragon's I have never said that was the reason for our estrangement, because it wasn't

You said that following a terrible row, things were still tense, but that your ES promised you he would not cut contact with your grandson. You said that you then went on holiday and by the time you came back, he had blocked you.

You said that he then met up with his father, after much persuading, that the meeting lasted for a few hours and that he spent that entire time telling lies about you. Lies that he had already told his older brother.

I have never said I never apologise, what I have said is I wont apologise for something I haven't said or done

Please show me where I said you said you never apologise! I didn’t say that. I say that you refused to apologise to your son because you felt you had nothing to apologise for. You have even said that your older son had a falling out with you because he couldn’t understand why you wouldn’t apologise to his brother.

You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you

I’m really not Smileless. Perhaps you should go back and read your old posts, it is easily done.

So, unable to refute the fact that even though for 7 years I've been describing our ES's wife's coercive behaviour, but not using that specific label, you are now 'recalling' something I have never said

You haven’t described any coercive behaviour over 7 years. None. Whether that specific label was used or not. I provided a list of behaviours that would be considered controlling and coercive. Here they are again:

• Deprivation of basic needs, such as food.
• Monitoring his time.
• Monitoring him via online communication tools or spyware.
• Taking control over aspects of his everyday life, such as where he can go, who he can see, what he can wear and when he can sleep.
• Depriving him access to support services, such as medical services.
• Repeatedly putting him down, such as saying he is worthless.
• Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising him.
• Controlling his finances.
• Making threats or intimidating him.

You’ve never mentioned anything like this on GNs over the past 7 years.

I don’t know what else to say to you Smileless, you keep trying to tell me I’m wrong, but it is your words I am reading. And they do not match what you are saying now.

rosecarmel you are so right, when you argue with someone you love and get into "who is more at fault" how can it ever be resolved? The important thing is how to change things for the future.

And who are you Starblaze to give me many opportunities to move past it and move on considering the part you played.

Thank you MissA as you've posted, some of the things that were said were both disgusting and foul. I have not forgotten them or those who were responsible for saying them.

Madgran, I think all of his books are fascinating- I love his pattern of presenting facts all while shifting his perception of those facts over time instead of being rigid- Which is awesome because he keeps his audience scrambling rather than following all while exploring the facts- He's fun-

It all boils down to the fact that parental accountability and responsibility is a direct result of choosing to have children-

The decision is yours as is all that comes with it-

Having said that, when estrangement occurs, a parent cannot suddenly rescind their decision to have kids, or sever themselves from outcomes related to their initial decision-

When a parent thinks that nothing they did didn't influence their child's decisions, it's an illusion and not a fact-

A fact that once deeply considered and understood doesn't default to illusion and assigning blame but moves towards solutions-

I remember when it all broke down with my mum, stepdad and brother, that there were many cries that I was "mentally ill" and that nothing I was talking about ever happened.

OK yes I have been mentally ill with depression and anxiety but not the kind of mentally ill they claimed I was.

Now, if you are speaking to someone you genuinely believe is mentally ill, should you be:

1. Furious and swearing and telling them they are cruel, nasty, will never amount to anything and you are ashamed of them and you want nothing to do with them. Telling them that they absolutely should not see a therapist or get any support because the support will only hear their side of the story?

2. Patiently explain to them that you love them, you would never do anything to hurt them deliberately but you are wiling to listen to how they feel and make changes to help them feel better in future. (with possible thoughts about actual mental health support of course).

Spoiler Alert, 1 is my immediate families response. It led to a nervous breakdown.

Smileless -- You don't see the relevance that Estranged Parents self report that they have been called toxic/Narcissistic by their children?

The relevance is, IF EP's know that is what their 'kids' think of them that should be the 'clue' as to why the estrangement occurred. The parent doesn't have to AGREE but if they don't and refuse to examine why their child would say that... Well, that's it in a nutshell.

The child is saying -- "This relationship is 100% not working for Me. Can we meet half-way?" And there is no "half-way" to be found so No Contact is the only avenue left.

So EP's crying, "I don't know why I'm estranged!" is kinda silly when many of those same EP's will also report, "My kid told me I was a toxic Narcissist." There's your "answer". Your child estranged because they think you are abusive.

And none of you feel guilty about your behaviour towards smileless a while back??

There were some disgusting, foul things said.
I hope there is never a repeat of that.

I have given you so many opportunities to move past it and move on Smileless. You accuse me of wanting to carry it on when I just want you to listen.

There is nothing passive aggressive in anything I've said to you today. Maybe that's the perception you need so that you don't feel guilty for your behaviour. So yes, that's why I don't trust your word. By my experience, twisting things, putting 100% of the blame on me... How could I possibly?

So was that research done on the EAC of EP's who posted on the 'Going No Contact' thread? If not, I don't see the relevance. And of course, if an EAC says My parent never apologizes... EVER they just have to be believed don't they.

"I have never said I never apologise, what I have said is I wont apologise for something I haven't said or done. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you."

The thread on 'Going No Contact' had a lot of EP's reporting that their AC had called them Narcissistic/toxic/abusive etc. And if you do research on what EAC mean when they say that, lo and behold you'll find that one big complaint is:

My parent never apologizes... EVER

And gosh golly, the next thing those same 'kids' report is that when they ask/tell the parent they believe they are owed an apology the 'parent' immediately falls back to, "I haven't done ANYTHING that requires an apology."

And as a side-note... Commenting on a person's language, syntax, grammar etc. is another form of ad hominem attack. It's the, "I don't like what you are saying so I'll attack how you are saying 'it'." thing.

Well as you don't trust me at my word Starblaze I'm sure you'll understand why I don't trust you at yours.

You passive aggressive "This isn't me disagreeing with you" just doesn't wash with me. You're almost right; it isn't that bullies never apologise, it's just that when they do they do so without sincerity or integrity.

I actually remember clearly saying to you back then that there was room for how we both felt. That I hadn't meant to cause you any strife but you had really hurt my feelings. There were streams of me trying very hard to explain to you on multiple threads. You however had decided I was the villain in your victim story and refused to listen. I am not and never have been responsible for your arguments with others and I will not be scapegoat for your anger towards them.

I'm an honest person and people will either believe me or they won't, it doesn't matter really.

Besides, I don't want you to leave, the place wouldn't be the same without you and occasionally I am very interested in your comments lol

That's not the conversation we had in private Smileless she didn't want me to get involved for my sake, she didn't want people to start on me for defending her.

I laugh at you when you twist the past, I laugh when you make ridiculous assertions and I laugh at the fact that I truly thought we had a good relationship until one small misunderstanding had you turn on me. I apologised for the misunderstanding. I apologised for being defensive and I apologised for being rude to you. I have apologised to you eV ry time I misunderstood something you said or got a piece of I formation wrong.

You have never apologised to me.

Bullies never apologise.

No, it doesn't mean he is a victim of domestic abuse but, in our opinion he has been and continues to be controlled and manipulated by his wife.

Oh no, no, no MotherofDragon's I have never said that was the reason for our estrangement, because it wasn't. I have never said I never apologise, what I have said is I wont apologise for something I haven't said or done. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you.

So, unable to refute the fact that even though for 7 years I've been describing our ES's wife's coercive behaviour, but not using that specific label, you are now 'recalling' something I have never said.

That explains it then, I'd have I'm sure remembered your name if I'd seen it before the end of last year as I'm an avid 'Game of Thrones' fan.

That's a bit rich coming from you isn't it Starblaze, especially the "WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEE" reference. I'm sure I have been remiss on occasion on not picking up on something an EP said too or about an EAC, but really who are you to even mention it.

You don't defend EP's, on the contrary you join in when one's receiving a metaphorical kicking from others.

The poster you keep referring too posted here on GN, not long before she decided to leave, that she had found it helpful rising to some of the more challenging discussions here.

When you came back to GN in January you took it upon yourself to 'sympathise' with her because she was being bullied, despite her telling you she was OK and would make her own opinion.

How many times have you laughed with your lol's and made jokes of things I have posted? Or does the fact that you haven't succeeded in bullying me away from GN, mean it doesn't matter.

Yogagirl didn't bully her off the site, she only made a couple of references to her posts. I on the other hand, despite us not always being in agreement, had some informative and sensible discussions with her.

And if you believed your son to be in a domestically abusive relationship, then I can’t understand why you would speak or why you spoke about him in such a callous way.

You have referred to him on here as your nasty son. You have said that you wouldn’t reconcile with him in the future because of all he has done to you. You don’t appear to have attempted to help him in any way.

It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

There's been no sudden change of story. I've always talked about our ES's wife's manipulative and controlling behaviour which is what coercive behaviour is. I don't know whose posts you've been reading for years but mine have always spoken of our estrangement being due to our ES's wife

Smileless, you having problems with your ES’s wife, and your ES siding with her, and also raising issues of his own, does not mean your ES is a victim of domestic abuse. And if I recall correctly, you said your estrangement was caused by an argument between you all and your refusal to apologise, because you didn’t feel you had anything to apologise for.

It doesn't matter why you said you don't believe me, why without actually using the word liar, that's what you called me. I have never and would never do such a thing to another poster

Of course it matters why I said I don’t believe you. I didn’t just call you a liar for no reason. Your posts raised questions for me, which I asked you. You chose not to answer, which is fine, but after following your story for all these years, the changes are too much for me to just blindly accept. I said “I think you are lying”, which I believe you are. If there is a better way you think I could or should express that, please let me know.

the first time I recall seeing you on GN was toward the end of last year? I could be wrong

You’re not wrong. I had to create a new account because of a privacy concern. However, I have never posted consistently under either username.

Smileless This isn't me disagreeing with you but I have to ask you again, why don't you hold estranged parents to the same rules you hold estranged children to?

You are literally the first to pull up estranged children for saying anything you even mildly don't like.

You even pull up estranged children for not saying things ie: EAC: "some parents are abusive" Smileless "Some children are abusive!". Which actually detracts from the pain they have been through which is why I don't do that to estranged parents here. I thought about reversing everything estranged parents say to prove a point but actually it's just cruel. It is also very WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEE.

Why do you happily pull up estranged children but don't pull up Yogagirl for laughing and joking about another member who ended up depressed and Left?

Its why I don't trust you at your word.

If I talk about a large herbivore, that predominantly eats grass, produces milk, also provides meat for us to eat and is mated with a bull, do I have to use the word cow so you know what I'm talking about?

Yes, it's all there on pages 3 and 4 of this thread, the conversation I was having with Norah which clearly demonstrates why I used the term coercive behaviour, a controlling and manipulative partner, something I've been talking about for years.

There's been no sudden change of story. I've always talked about our ES's wife's manipulative and controlling behaviour which is what coercive behaviour is. I don't know whose posts you've been reading for years but mine have always spoken of our estrangement being due to our ES's wife. One can, as I have done, talk about coercive behaviour without using the specific label.

It doesn't matter why you said you don't believe me, why without actually using the word liar, that's what you called me. I have never and would never do such a thing to another poster.

I referred to coercive behaviour being an offence, now enshrined in law as there was a poster who was disputing the fact that an adult can be controlled and manipulated by another.

While spending years reading these threads, did you not post or did you post under another name as the first time I recall seeing you on GN was toward the end of last year? I could be wrong but I don't remember seeing your 'name' before that and MotherofDragons isn't one that's easy to forget.

What I don't do, is tell an EP or and EAC that I don't believe them; that was said to me on this thread

Yes, I said that to you. But you seem to have glossed over why that was.

I have been reading these threads for years and your account of your estrangement has changed so significantly that you may as well be a new poster with an entirely different experience.

If I see a post from an EP that for me raises questions, I ask those questions but I do so in a polite and considered manner

Your post saying that you believe your son to be in a coercive and controlling relationship raised questions for me, so I asked you why you thought that, as you have never indicated this before, nor have you been in touch with your ES for you to now have these concerns. You certainly didn’t when you first started posting here.

You refused to answer my question. In fact, you then said that my questioning this new information was ”to satisfy some deep seated dissatisfaction in their own lives”. No, your post simply raised questions which were too significant to ignore, given your prominence as a poster on estrangement for just over 7 years. That is when I concluded that you were not being truthful.

You said yourself “I'm not a fool”, so you must understand why an older member of GNs would wish clarification on your sudden change of story.

I mean it’s all there, on pages 3 and 4 of this thread.