The 'Perception Filter'...

Not at all HolyHannah I'm not a fool, I know as we all do that there are some cruel and abusive parents out there. It goes without saying that you're not going to have an EP here on GN say they've been estranged by their AC because they abused them and made their childhood hell, anymore then an EAC is going to say their parents gave them a secure and happy childhood, but they just don't want a relationship with them anymore, so have estranged them.

It has nothing to do with failing to grasp how abusive/dysfunctional people operate and the manipulative and controlling techniques they use. We know how they work, our ES is married to one for goodness sake.

What I don't do, is tell an EP or and EAC that I don't believe them; that was said to me on this thread. I remember that thread and yes of course it stands to reason that if the majority can see EAC saying the same thing, it's reasonable for EAC to see the majority of EP's saying the same thing.

The issue I have is the constant 'AC don't walk away from good parents', there's no smoke without fire, the dismissing of the relevance of third party involvement, and on that particular thread from some, the refusal to accept that brainwashing can and does exist, and be a cause of estrangement.

If I see a post from an EP that for me raises questions, I ask those questions but I do so in a polite and considered manner.
I don't, as I've seen here on GN post you need counselling/therapy, typed in upper case to 'shout' at the poster I'm responding too.

You started this thread, 'The Perception Filter'. All of our filters are affected to a greater or lesser degree by our own experiences. If the EP's perception is going to be aggressively questioned, as has happened on this thread, treated with scorn and in one case disbelieved, what was the point of starting this thread here on GN? EP's and EGP's read and post here.

If you don't want to hear or know about their experiences, and that's the impression I get from you and others, though I maybe wrong, why start this thread and some of the others you've started here on GN, where it's obvious you're going to get feed back from EP's and EGP's, who don't appear to be your target audience?

"That is not the case for the majority of estrangement"

Sparkling That perception is wrong, that perception is why so many parents are getting away with abusing their own children and that is why some EAC will keep fighting to be heard. To prevent damaging opinions like that preventing abused children getting help.

Should have read, to generalise and say estrangement is down to bad parenting is wrong.

HolyHannah, I think I explained what I meant. Most of the grandparents on here are not abusers by any means. Somewhere along the line things went wrong and unfortunately it takes both sides to want the same outcome, most have tried to sort things out before becoming estranged, can you imagine how that must be for them? To lose their child and grandchildren. I know that one day these grandchildren will break the cycle when they are free speaking adults and make their own unbiased decisions. Everyone is at some time guilty of a thoughtless comment,but don't judge unless you want to want to be be judged, that comment is enough to start a rift for some people, those with a personality disorder or mental illness can take such a comment out of all context, so can a very manipulating partner that can be jealous of their partners love for their parents. It's a story as old as the hills..You were abused, you have said that many, many times, you say you have moved on and are comfortable with your decisions. I was querying why if that was the case you don't seem to enjoy the peace and keep revisiting and justifying what you did. No one is denying there are very damaged parents out there who treat their children appallingly. That is not the case for the majority of esteangement. To generalise and say it is always fault, not so, I have seen myself how children can go off the rails, it can be who they make friends with or have a relationship with.

"Talking to Strangers" ..thanks for reference. Will have a look at it.

Talking to Strangers by Gladwell is an interesting read- What I like about him as an author is that while he relies on research that's been thoroughly established and proven he isn't frightened to change his perception and as a result his mind about his own observations of it- But the subjects he writes about do not change throughout-

I think that's a normal, healthy pattern for a person who wishes to continue to change and learn and share what he discovers about particular subjects with others- His insistence isn't to convince but to get the reader to at the very least reflect and take what been determined about psychology seriously-

Smileless -- Your perspective seems to be, all parents that are estranged are blameless victims. You seem to believe/accept without question, any excuse/justification that an EP gives that doesn't involve any personal responsibility on the part of the parent(s).

What people fail to grasp is, abusers/dysfunctional thinkers all say and use the same techniques to control/manipulate their victims.

There is an entire unit at the US FBI that studies behavior. They are called the Behavioral Analysis Unit. They use multiple tools to do that job.

One is linguistic analysis. They look at what people say, how they say it and can make determinations on their behavior based on that.

How can they do that job if there is no patterns in behavior to analyse?

A while ago here on GN there was a thread about "The Brainwashing of going No Contact" and most EP's agreed that all EAC sound the same. Does it not stand to reason that if parents can see that most EAC say the same things (whether they are being honest or not) the same cannot be seen in reverse?

So, if I learned all the ways my own 'mom' was abusive, through counselling and therapy, it becomes easy to see those same behaviors in others who are displaying them. I would be swinging back around to dysfunctional thinking/behavior IF I was seeing that behavior when it wasn't present.

Patterns of behavior don't change/are not 100% unique from person to person/situation to situation -- otherwise Profilers wouldn't be able to do their jobs.

Again, one of the things that dysfunctional personalities exhibit is that they believe they are exceptional and unique, that how they behave is somehow 'different' and therefore no one should be able to see through them.

Sparkling -- I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. No one can convince anyone, especially dysfunctional thinkers, that they are adding 2 + 2 and arriving at 5 as being the 'wrong answer'. What I can do is point out where I see people behaving in certain ways, highlight it and explain the behavior with context. What you or anyone chooses to believe/do with the information is up to them.

Oh well a bit of embarrassment isnt the end of the world.

I don't have a filter, I say what I think. At least once a day that means saying something ridiculously stupid and embarrassing myself.

Maybe the difference in real life is that people can't assign a tone to my voice or a different meaning to my words

Interesting Starblaze I think it is harder to do that face face certainly. I sometimes think people say more on a forum than they do face to face, depending on the subject. And I think maybe people express them selves differently when writing. Generally I think I prefer face to face.

Maybe the difference in real life is that people can't assign a tone to my voice or a different meaning to my words. Except those like my mum

I'm absolutely the same offline, only difference being I'm better liked. Literally the same. I didn't think that was too unusual? lol

Coraline. Now that was an interesting film

I rather fancied the Newtons Orbital Cradle Motherofdragons. The full name is "Newtons Orbital Cradle Balance Balls" ...but I decided a scientific debate on that would be a step too far!

Can you ever watch Coraline too many times? : )

Yes, you'd like to let another's interpretation of your art rest- But you can't! You have to return atop a cherry red hamster wheel to the gallery to interpret your own work for them!

"" No,no .. I used this shade of green because it closely matched the shade of Smileless's (say that 3 times fast) lime Kool-Aid, and painted the cream colored clouds to suggest cheese-cake .. ""

Madgran77 I’m just thankful that the debate on Newtons Orbital Cradle was avoided!

MotherofDragons -- I see what you are saying and I really should have added "*in a relationship where the parties initially start as unequal."* As in a parent/child relationship.

Someone who starts as a power/authority in a relationship can fail to allow that relationship to evolve in a healthy way. When that happens, the 'lesser' in the relationship may become less and less happy while the original authority still considers the situation 'happy' and fulfilling for both sides.

Certainly two equal adults entering a mutual relationship can and in a healthy relationship SHOULD have both parties knowing the relationship is solid.

I apologize for the confusion and hope that clarifies my meaning.

Yes I'm aware of saying that rather a lot Motherofdragons I keep saying I'm moving on but when further comments are made on an interpretation (that I think is sincerely meant but from my perspective is a misinterpretation) of what I have said or am doing, then I am not comfortable to leave it!

Either way hope noone else has lost their lunch on the hamster wheel. I wonder if it is a Golden one!

You’re right Motherofdragons, no one can ever know what another person thinks. You can however give the benefit of the doubt over so many years as a kind, respectful and loving person and you would expect to receive the same in return

I see so many on here striving to understand another person’s perception of their suffering and some refusing to acknowledge anything other than one way - their way!

I speak as someone who was suddenly estranged, struggled to find an apologetic and understanding way through but eventually was allowed to be heard and accepted as an ever loving parent and adoring grandparent whose respect for different parenting skills never wavered.

We can all be different as parents but surely those differences can be accommodated and managed as adults. My own parents weren’t perfect, no more than I was, but forgiveness and moving forward on a personal level with our own children is a successful outcome, however imperfect it might seem to the pedants.

What are you doing then, Madgran

Joining in a discussion!!

I thought you were moving on!

What are you doing then, Madgran

Joining in a discussion!!! Feeling somewhat bemused by the good old hamster wheel and not losing my lunch or even the delicious strawberry cheesecake that I ate this evening!!

And pondering on the dynamics of how individuals respond to different discussions and different scenarios in forums and face to face and whether those responses are similar or very different

MotherofDragons you can understand why it's easier to lay blame with a third party yet you don't seem to be able to accept that some estrangements are because of the influence of a third party

I can accept that people are capable of just about anything, so I have no problem believing that some estrangements are because of the influence of a third party. I am not sure why that is what you inferred from my post Smileless when was I was actually addressing was your comment of:

Yes that's true but doesn't apply when a previously solid relationship falls apart when a third party becomes involved

With:

You can never truly know if a relationship is solid because you can never truly what another person is thinking or know how another person is feeling. It’s impossible

Can you accept that you can’t know for certain whether you have a “solid” relationship with someone or not because you can never know what another person is thinking or feeling?

Smileless, arrived with the kool-aid again- Everyone, drink up!

Or catch a ride on Madgran's hamster wheel and loose your lunch!