Hope For Estranged Grandparents

I don't focus on you at all Starblaze. We're posting on the same thread and if I wish to highlight your name, which is common practice on GN, ask you questions and comment on the questions you ask of other posters I will do.

We all care about children that's why we're having this discussion.

OK Smileless

You are right but only to a certain extent MotherofDragons. Parents can be as unreasonable as they like where GP's have never met their GC, but they will not always be allowed to be unreasonable where an established relationship previously existed

But the granting of a court order is not based upon the parent’s unreasonableness Smileless. It is based upon the grandparent being able to prove to the court that the withdrawal of contact is more detrimental to the child’s wellbeing than the totality of all other factors. The parent’s unreasonableness is irrelevant and it is deflecting from what it is the court is actually interested in.

“parents can be as unreasonable as they like"; is there any wonder there are GP's having no other option but to try and get a contact order just to see their GC

I don’t understand why this is so shocking to hear. Parents are the decision makers when it comes to their minor children, even the unreasonable ones. Has it ever been any different?

If the court rules that denying that relationship to the children is an unreasonable act, they have the power and the authority to grant a contact order to the GP's

No Smileless, you’ve got that wrong. The court will not rule that denying contact with the grandparents is an unreasonable act because that is not what is in question.

The burden of proof is on the grandparents to prove to the court that the withdrawal of contact is more detrimental to the child’s wellbeing than the totality of all other factors and it is on that requirement being satisfied that a Court Order will be granted.

The parent’s unreasonableness is irrelevant. It is not what the court is concerned with. It is not what the court will rule on.

I didn't say it was Motherofdragons and the parents unreasonableness isn't irrelevant, it's very relevant if their children's rights are being deliberately and unreasonably subverted.

The court is interested in whether or not the GP's have an established relationship with their GC. The court is interested in whether or not the parents decision to withhold their children, is based on the welfare of those children or their own personal grievances. The court is interested in whether or not the children will be upset and/or disrupted if they see their GP's. The court is interested in whether or not the children will be upset and/or disrupted if they can't see their GP's. The court is interested ultimately in whether or not the children's best interests are served, by continuing their relationship with their GP's or having that relationship terminated.

I didn't say it's shocking to hear that parents can be as unreasonable as they like as is obvious by the section of my post you've reiterated.

We live with the consequence of two parents behaving as unreasonably as they like, as do their children.

the parents unreasonableness isn't irrelevant, it's very relevant if their children's rights are being deliberately and unreasonably subverted

Smileless the parents could be acting absolutely unreasonably and the court will still not grant a Court Order because they are not satisfied that the withdrawal of contact is indeed more detrimental to the child’s wellbeing than the totality of all other factors.

It is a very important distinction to make.

It suggests that the parent’s “unreasonableness” will be a deciding factor in any decision, when that it not the case at all. The deciding factor is whether or not contact is in the best interests of the child. A court will never rule “that denying that relationship to the children is an unreasonable act” as you have said, because that is not what the application made under the legislation is asking them to do. They are not concerned with this at all. It is irrelevant.

This is pure projection of how the grandparent views the outcome of a successful case, rather than what the outcome is actually based on.

I didn't say it's shocking to hear that parents can be as unreasonable as they like as is obvious by the section of my post you've reiterated

No, you are right, I apologise, you didn’t say that. When I first posted it earlier in the thread one poster said it was “chilling”. I had that in mind when responding.

I think it's pretty obvious what is meant when the words reasonable and unreasonable are being used in this context

For example parents who unreasonably withhold their children from the GP's ie has nothing to do with the children but is all about the parent

Parents behaving reasonably ie coming to some arrangement with the GP's for contact and avoiding the legal process

It is not obvious at all what is meant by the use of reasonable and unreasonable given that they are subjective terms.

It is incredibly unhelpful and is detracting heavily from the greater discussion.

Madgran -- Granniesunite said to me, "I hope if you are still experiencing these difficulties with your family that you have the help you need to get by.

Court could be just the place for resolution."

And Nonnie said that the fact that I have no contact with either side of the family make Me look like the issue.

It sure sounds to me like some would like me marched in front of 'the courts' to be told how 'unreasonable' I am.

I think that's more to do with your own feelings than anything that has been said here, which, in a nutshell is that all circumstances are different.
Anecdotal stories of how your families mistreated you are not proof that all other parents or grandparents behave the same.

I'm getting confused Motherofdragons because what you're posting I am also posting. I have not said that the parents unreasonableness alone would be a deciding factor.

I gave a comprehensive list of what the court will look at when considering a GP's case for contact. The court will not rule that the unreasonable withdrawal of GC from their parents is the a reason to grant contact, but it will take that into consideration.

My brother's entire career was as a family solicitor and he knows what family courts will take on board when making their final ruling, and one of those is whether or not the parents and/or the GP's are believed to be acting reasonably, and in the best interests of the children.

You've posted that the deciding factor is whether or not contact is in the best interests of the child and that is what I have been saying throughout this thread.

I haven't seen anyone suggest you should be "marched in front of 'the courts' to be told how unreasonable (you are)" HolyHannah.

I agree with MissA that that interpretation has "more to do with your own feelings than anything that has been said here".

Absolutely right MissA; I'm also an estranged adult child; no contact with my birth family for decades thank God. My circumstances are nothing like those of anyone else on this thread, because all estrangement from family is totally, completely and utterly unique. There is no "one size fits all" solution as to how to come to terms with it anymore than there is one overarching demographic that is to "blame" for estrangements.

Some accept that they took their decision for very good reasons and are quite happy with that decision and move on with their lives. Sadly some cannot. And there will be no peace of mind until they do.

HH did you really mean " both estranged sides of the 'family"? If that were the case I think the courts might ask why you had cut off all GPs as that would rather imply you were the problem. Perhaps you didn't mean that.

Yes, again, it is the court that decides.

So should I take myself to court and let them decide if I'm being "unreasonable"? At least 2 posters have suggested that a court could decide that. The fact that there is no one but my husband and I that could launch a case for visitation with our children, why would I want to go before 'a court' to justify our estrangement from our families?

Wow that's some incredible mental gymnastics MissA and Smileless

10/10

Thanks.
Now perhaps the discussion could get back on track?

The discussion is on track, very much on topic and showing exactly why some grandparents should not be around minor children because they cannot even see their own bad behaviour, be accountable for it or offer genuine apology. Heaven forbid though that a parent should say anything rude though.

“Pesky adult children! Should do as I say! Not as I do!“

How does it show that?

Exactly.

Well, regardless of that compelling argument, the opening post has shown that courts will allow grandparents access.

showing exactly why some grandparents should not be around minor children because they cannot even see their own bad behaviour

Where has this bad behaviour been demonstrated?

Pesky adult children! Should do as I say! Not as I do!“ So as a mature, independent adult who has proven that they have raised their own family to a reasonable standard, don't you think that you can just ignore them? Or tell them to stfu? Why does that still matter to you? Why do you still think that you have something to prove to those that you dispensed with years ago? It just doesn't make sense.

OP seems reasonably nice so far, hope things work out well for her and especially her granchildren long term

I'm not sure what you mean Chewbacca?

*Madgran -- Granniesunite said to me, "I hope if you are still experiencing these difficulties with your family that you have the help you need to get by.

Court could be just the place for resolution."

And Nonnie said that the fact that I have no contact with either side of the family make Me look like the issue.

It sure sounds to me like some would like me marched in front of 'the courts' to be told how 'unreasonable' I am.*

HolyHannah I read "Granniesunites" comment as trying to sympathise; some might well see it as poorly expressed, but still an attempt to sympathise. .

She is also saying that a court might help you with a resolution to the difficulties you described with your family. I would guess (but don't know) that she is unaware of the many times that you have described aspects of your family experiences, decisions that you took and that you are happy with your estrangement and want no contact. I do not interpret that as saying that you should be "marched to the courts"

Nonnie I agree is commenting on how the courts might view your personal situation. I do not think that that is saying you should be "marched to court"

To be honest the courts are irrelevant to your personal situation of estrangement as far as I can see and from the information your have provided over time regarding your experiences and your estrangement I cannot imagine how courts would ever be involved in your situation. I am unsure why you feel that comments about the courts somehow link directly to you, other than where someone possibly less privy to the information you have provided over time in various threads is hoping that "if you are still experiencing these difficulties with your family that you have the help you need to get by" and suggesting, presumably incorrectly from your perspective as this is your life, that Court might be a source of resolution.

Well thank you Starblaze for the praise, now perhaps you'd like to explain the mental gymnastics displayed by myself and MissA that you found so impressive that you awarded us 10 out of 10.

Starblaze posting "Exactly" isn't exactly answering MissA's question; perhaps you'd care to elaborate!!

Is there any need for you take yourself to court HolyHannah so a court can decide whether or not you've been unreasonable? Are you not confident in the decisions you have taken, and your reasons for taking them so need a court's approval?

I can see from Ironflower's posts that she has genuine concerns that the GP's of her children may decide to take their case to court. I suggested earlier that she get some legal advice as from what she's said I don't think the GP's in her case would ever succeed.

It would I'm sure put her mind at rest.

As for the other EAC who have been posting here, there's been no suggestion from any of you that GP's going to court to see their GC would ever be an issue.

Of course anyone is free to post on any thread. The thread was started by worthitall to give hope to EGP's and I for one hope that it will.

Her success or the success of any other GP wont make any difference to our situation, and from what's been posted here, wont make any difference to the EAC who post here either.

And before anyone responds with 'my concern is for then innocent children' we are all concerned with the children, or at least we should be.

Perhaps if all adults, when it comes to considering the established relationship between children and their GP's, behaved like adults, the courts wouldn't be called on to intervene.

All concerned I'm sure would be the happier, especially the children.

No, I'm OK thank you Smileless