Is 'No Contact' abuse?

MoD -- Yes. I got asked to provide 'proof' of where someone was being deceptive and gas-lighting other people with radical story/fact changes and when I put that truth out there? Well, it was somehow 'bad' and lies. So even though it was the truth? Forget about the truth... Believe my story... Yeah. I don't buy 'stories' -- that's gas-lighting and I am immune.

I have seen that , or similar, too

But far more often when problematic behaviour is detailed people are told in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is not right, causing the problem etc

It depends on the type of forum.

On an estranged parents only forum, I have never seen members of the forum attempt to hold the OP accountable. Self reflection is actively discouraged.

On a mixed forum, this definitely happens, but there are still posters (usually members who are estranged) who discourage self reflection and assure the OP that it is not his/her fault.

Wow, I really don't know what happened there. I thought I'd missed a page. How did the discussion we were having fall apart so dramatically?
Just in case there's any confusion, you do know when I commented that you worded your last comment brilliantly starblaze I wasn't being sarky or anything. I agree you try to avoid blanket statements and do word things very well. I thought the fact that you used the most unblanket-statement way to say that was clever and witty as well as being true. I do hope that my grin didn't come across the wrong way.
I did try to make clear that it was the phrase Mentally stable parents have mentally stable children which I feel could suggest that only mentally unstable have mentally unstable children. I don't see how you can interpret anything I said as saying that I disagree with your statements about your situtation. I have tried to carefully convey, each time I posted that it's the opposite.

And I don't understand the thing about the rules. Sorry.

It depends on the type of forum.

I was talking about GN.

but there are still posters (usually members who are estranged) who discourage self reflection and assure the OP that it is not his/her fault.

I don't really understand your point. Has someone suggested there aren't? I think it is worth keeping in mind that there are many who do encourage self reflection, as I described.

hugshelp

No, no need to worry at all, always shocked when someone gets my stupid sense of humour but shocked in a good way ?

And I don't understand the thing about the rules.

I don't either hugshelp

And I don't understand the thing about the rules.

Quite a few of us then

hugshelp if it helps, I took mentally stable parents have mentally stable children in a different way to you.

First I took it to mean minor children not adult children. Of course minor children become adult children but childhood issues physically shape a growing brain and reshaping it as an adult is a lot of work. (I have physical health disorders connected to childhood abuse)

Second, I know my mental health affects my children's mental health which is a HUGE factor in my estrangement. My children need a happy mum.

Third, yes, some children have hereditary conditions or suffer from other abuse/other factors but the parents mental health can have a huge impact on how well they cope with those sorts of conditions/issues.

That's what I took it to mean.... I just didn't want to go around arguing someone else's words because I feel uncomfortabke speaking for others.

What if they meant things exactly as it was taken? I'd look like a total idiot if the OP then refused to clarify or confirmed the way it was taken lol

So that was my take on it.

I think it has been clarified already though

I was talking about GN

Well, I wasn’t. I was speaking about having never actually read a post or comment by an estranged parent on any forum saying that they did or said something to cause their estrangement.

I don't really understand your point. Has someone suggested there aren't? I think it is worth keeping in mind that there are many who do encourage self reflection, as I described

I was simply making an observation Madgran.

I wasn’t making a point.

No one has suggested anything.

I know that there are many who do encourage self reflection, but those posters are not estranged parents.

The issue for most AEC I speak to, is they don't want to be No Contact at all. They feel forced to save themselves and their children. Sure some are furious and some are suffering with mental health issues, some are putting one foot in front of the other looking for the happy, some are all 3 and more. Is this how they want it to be? Nope.

I've never seen anyone deny something they've posted.

What I have seen are posts taken out of context by a poster in a sad attempt to 'prove' that their story has changed, when it hasn't.

As you posted earlier Madgran posters have been told if it's felt that they are being unreasonable and warned about the possible consequences of their actions, and that has come from EP's too. I've done so myself.

I've never seen any where an EAC say they had good parents and a loving childhood and their estrangement of them had nothing to do with their parents, but we know that happens don't we.

MOD you mentioned earlier about a poster who was deterred from reflecting on what they may have done to cause their estrangement, here on GN.

I asked if you could say which thread and forum that was on perhaps you could do so.

Forgot to say, I don't understand this thing about rules either.

I have seen EP ask other EP questions that would prompt them to ponder whether they could have done something differently. But I think there are reasons why it might not happen:

Society at large holds parents, and in general mothers, responsible for almost everything that goes wrong for children. I'm not saying parents aren't the biggest influence, but there are others. And research I've read on more recent psychological research suggests that some of these other influences can be significant. And yet, as a mum, if anything goes wrong in your child's life you can feel responsible. You probably question what you could have done to prevent it or done better. Further to that women are generally held to higher account or responsibility than men for many things. Would people discuss what a man was wearing if he got raped for example? So I think women don't want to 'hold to account' other women whom they know will have been judged, and judged themselves harshly many times.

And I do hope that nobody would 'hold to account' any EC who have gone NC. Their reasons are theirs, and if they want to share them hopefully they will be supported. If the OP had posted, 'does anyone think I was being abusive by going NC with my parents' I would be astonished if anyone could say yes you were. But if someone opens up a topic as a general discussion, it will bring up all kinds of thoughts.

Now it may be there are some that should be pushed to look at their own behaviour. But, firstly, judging the whole picture by a few snippets can by inaccurate. Secondly, telling someone, 'do you think you could have done this better?' when they have already lost contact isn't going to help them fix it. When there are chances of reconcilliation and someone says they are meeting with family they were previously estranged from, then hopefully advice will be as objective as possible. People often suggest expert reading or therapy - I don't think those sources will just say, 'yes yes you are always right' - but it's a gentle way to get people to get objective input.

Sometimes this feels awfully like 'taking sides'. But perhaps we need to bear in mind that it is natural to feel some empathy for others that are suffering in the same way we are. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be honest with them though.

I'm afraid some of the later things in this thread refer back to things I haven't seen. But I think if we can talk respectfully and clear up misunderstandings when they arise we can all learn and support from one another. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think they had to tow any specific line.

Starblaze I totally see how you interpreted the comment we were discussing. And that's how I would expect you to interpret it, that is how it would be seen from your position. A position I relate to. I was merely trying to point out that it can be seen from other view points. As well, not instead. Some of which I also relate to. When people bang on about blanket statements they are not dictating rules (if that's what the rule thing is about?) or saying what the person is saying is wrong they are merely pointing out that blanket statements are usually interpreted differently to statements worded more specifically, and this can hamper communication and cause discord in a discussion needlessly. If anyone doesn't know why this keeps getting mentioned please do google why blanket statements cause arguments to check it out. And if I'm preaching to better communicators than me, sorry, I'm doing my best.

I totally support everything else you said in that post and the last post starblaze and the way you worded it was really helpful. And even as I'm writing that I'm thinking, 'oh heck I hope that doesn't sound patronising or like I'm a self-appointed expert or....' See so many pitfalls in communicating. Especially on forums.

"I've never seen any where an EAC say they had good parents and a loving childhood and their estrangement of them had nothing to do with their parents, but we know that happens don't we."

Again -- Just because YOU say it happens DOES NOT make that truth/reality.

As you stated -- "I've never seen any where an EAC say they had good parents and a loving childhood..." Boy you nailed it Smileless. I've never heard that either because AC don't estrange from "good and loving parents" regardless of the number of EP's who say they do...

I've never seen anyone deny something they've posted

It is more than just denying it. It is not even acknowledging it.

What I have seen are posts taken out of context by a poster in a sad attempt to 'prove' that their story has changed, when it hasn't

Were the posts taken out of context though? I don’t see how the context has changed.

MOD you mentioned earlier about a poster who was deterred from reflecting on what they may have done to cause their estrangement, here on GN

Sure, the thread is on this board - Anyone There? Need Support!

MOD you mentioned earlier about a poster who was deterred from reflecting on what they may have done to cause their estrangement, here on GN

And also the poster elana who didn’t actually start her own thread, but had posted over a few different ones.

hugshelp I totally understand your points and I think you communicated them beautifully.
There is often room for how everyone feels, I dunno what blanket statements I'm missing as I've lost all track but I generally don't think I
have a need to pull them all up because, well that's a valid feeling to have if life has offered you no evidence its wrong. If its caused by hurt or anger, especially. Also, sometimes they are right and the odd exception just proves the rule lol

Maybe I could pull up the blanket statements or maybe I could prove it wrong with kindness and empathy?

Bear (bare? Always muck that one up) in mind this is all stuff I am learning now. Putting on my big girl pants here.

I've had, let's say, quite a few of my comments twisted beyond my recognition recently. Sometimes I'm overly harsh when I'm cross about things but I apologise when I see myself doing it. Sometimes I'm harsh defending myself from worse, so I don't apologise because I'm owed a bigger apology and the bigger apologies have to happen before the smaller ones if you know what I mean.

So I understand you and Im seeing things a bit differently but there are always more colours than black and white

Thank you starblaze, you worded that really well too. I'm just starting to get your sense of humour properly. You're witty but it sometimes get missed.

I'm just going to throw out a few random thoughts then I'm off to bed.

When we respond to a particular person, often the feeling we give out is felt by everyone, it somehow shades the feel of the whole discussion. But we don't always want to tag a particular person when we're miffed, that would feel like bullying or something if it was constant.

Most of the time we are defending our own position. I think or hope. But it can feel like an attack to others.

Sometimes we only respond to certain things, ignoring others. Maybe because something sticks out. Maybe because we're catching up on things and it's hard work to keep track. Maybe because we want to mull other things over. Maybe because we just don't want to write war and peace...

Goodnight all. I wish you all well.

hugshelp "Society at large holds parents, and in general mothers, responsible for almost everything that goes wrong for children. I'm not saying parents aren't the biggest influence, but there are others."

I know that my children will/do have "out-side influences"... That's called life and growing up/maturing. The question becomes, "Did I, as the parent, prepare my child to face 'out-side influences' appropriately/in a healthy way?"

Where abusive/neglectful parents are concerned? The answer is, "No." My abusive parents absolutely DID NOT teach or even TRY to educate Me on what abuse "looks like" or how to cope with abusers appropriately. Why would they?

Why would abusive parents teach/educate their children on what mentally healthy behavior looks like when they are displaying anything BUT "healthy"? Hint -- They will not.

Then, as the "insult to injury", abusive parents resort to victim-blaming/shaming/shifting -- if their child develops MH issues, drug/alcohol dependency or any other of a host of issues that can develop/manifest because of CHILD ABUSE... It wasn't THEM, because they were 'just the parents' and 'parents' only play a insert minimal excuse "part" of who their child becomes as an adult.

Nope. I know the role my 'parents' took in my MHI's and they were the reason... I also KNOW that if I didn't, "Sort My shit out..." I WAS going to pass my dysfunctional upbringing to the next generation...

Abusers blame. Victims confess...

*I was simply making an observation Madgran.

I wasn’t making a point.*

My use of the word "point" could have easily been "observation" I suppose.

It struck me that maybe I use "point" just as a word, and someone reading it might read it as a bit aggressive. This is a genuine question as I am pondering on how easily things can be read not as they were intended, on forums and elsewhere. If you hadn't said that it would never have struck me that "point" might be seen differently to "observation"

My point/observation being that I think sometimes, not always, that is what causes some of the difficulties that arise in discussions.

I know that there are many who do encourage self reflection, but those posters are not estranged parents.

I have seen EPs encourage self reflection over the years, just as I have seen EAC do it, but can't for the life of me remember which specific threads now.

I've seen you encourage self reflection Madgran

Ah yes I remember the posts from elena and I with many others suggesting among other things, that she take a step back and not talk to her GS on the 'phone or at the window of her D's house because it was putting him in a difficult position.

The posts I referred too as being taken out of context, were taken out of context and this was commented on, not just by the poster who'd posted them originally, but by other GN's.

To begin with the poster in question was acknowledging and explaining what lay behind those posts. This was met with derision from a couple of GN's who were IMO unwilling to accept what they were being told as truth, because it doesn't fit with their personal agenda.

Yet again, that blanket statement that AC don't estrange from "good and loving parents" regardless of the number of EP's who say they do. Yes they do regardless of the number of EAC who say they don't.

Unless someone knows the real reasons behind all EAC's decision to estrange their parents, that is a ridiculous statement to make.

I'm butting in here and not necessarily answering the most current posts, but....

There are situations where children are brought up to think of others and grow into perfectly nice human beings. Who then becomes victims of abusers. Whose nature is to manipulate a perfectly reasonable partner I to doing and saying all kinds of things they wouldn't normally think of.
I can only think the parents were guilty of being a little naive in expecting the world to be as they thought they knew it.

Point I'm making badly and of course it will fall on deaf ears is, there are always different reasons why people go nc.

Just some people cant face that truth for fear their preconceptions, and jigsaw together psychological theories fall apart.

How will they cope with the muddy truth which is as humans we are are guilty in some way of human failings?

I write so much about this then usually delete because it's all been said before and roundly trounced.

Maybe this is the wrong thread, maybe I'm an idiot, but today I feel strong enough to say I want to call out against the abusers who spend all their time saying they defend children but actually are attacking people who may not even exist (invented personna) what a waste!

I want to applaud those who try so hard to bring clarification and positive help to those who suffer.

Namsnanny you're not butting in at all, you haven't posted on the wrong thread and your are not an idiot so I would like to applaud you for your post.