Difficult relationship and estrangement

I don't recall seeing any posts from GP's saying they love their GC more, or as much as their own AC. From my experience of GN Franbern I would say you're no different from the vast majority of P's and GP's here; certainly not "Unicorn status".

It would be far more beneficial to the OP and the discussion in general to stick with what's actually being said, rather than making sweeping, unfounded and negative generalizations about EP's and EGP's and/or those facing difficult family relationships.

It may seem strange to some who have never experienced being estranged by their AC and as a consequence from their GC, that we can and do mourn the loss of our GC even though we've never met them or hardly knew them, but we do.

It may not be everyone's personal experience but there's no need to treat the pain and distress with scorn and sarcasm just because you don't have personal experience.

But it is relevant to the OP.

She does not have a strong bond with her son.

Yet she is blaming the lack of bond with her GC on her DIL!!

She is comparing the relationship her GC has with her counterpart while failing to make the connection that that is there because of the love between a mother and daughter.

Where is her son?

I feel that there is no recognition that both the AC and her DiL are new at all this, they both have to feel their feet and both will make mistakes.

I remember when DiL had the first child we went to stay (with her mum) and she brought the baby over and handed him to me. I could see she really didn't want to, not to let anyone hold him but she did because it was the right thing to do. Over the years she has simply told me when I am doing something a different way to her and I have accepted it. She has gradually relaxed and now she has two children she will go off and leave them with us without a thought.

I don't live near them so DiL's mum sees a lot more of them than I do and she sends me photos and videos so I am included. Give and take on all sides works and no rules are necessary, just empathy.

So all responsibility of maintaining a relationship between the generations falls to the women?

How often does OPs son communicate with her, phone calls, texts, visits, requests to meet up and spend time together?

Glitterama - I’m getting from you that you want “fairness” and to see GD more.

Unfortunately for you, fair in relationships doesn’t always mean equal in terms of time.

I agree with others, a good relationship with the parent makes it a whole lot easier to have one with their child as there is established trust before the child is born.

Your DIL is fulfilling her obligation (IMO) by facilitating you seeing her child.

Also, I don’t see the issue with DIL being present for visits - what can’t you do with her there that you want to?

I’d think long and hard about turning this into a big battle - especially if you’re involving the rest of your “furious” family (who will only know details you tell them).

Maybe try to strengthen your relationship with your sons and their wives - not as a way to access their babies, but as a genuine attempt to have a closer family?

Lolo81 -- "a good relationship with the parent makes it a whole lot easier to have one with their child as there is established trust before the child is born." -- Exactly. How many times has it been said, "Well even if our AC want nothing to do with us, why can't we have access to the grand-children?"

My reply is always the same, "Because if you can't maintain a civil and mature relationship with your AC and their partner (regardless of who is the 'issue') then any relationship is going to be modeling bad behavior to the minor children."

"I don’t see the issue with DIL being present for visits - what can’t you do with her there that you want to?" -- This is always disconcerting for me as well. I just read yesterday where a mother of two was allowing visits with her in-laws. Contrary to the wishes of the parents, the in-laws were introducing 'religion' to the minor children in the form of a head-dress for the girl and teaching the boy that he didn't need to clean up his 'messes' because "that" was his sister's "job".

I really do think the relationship with my own child comes first and foremost. Nothing can match up to the bond you develop having or adopting a child. If I lost a relationship with my child my focus would be on making that right. If I put my focus on the grandchildren that would create animosity towards my child which would make things worse not better.

My mum has accused me of using my children as a weapon. I have always thought that a silly statement really. I am protecting them from a horrible situation and they are protected from that horrible situation no matter who is at fault.

Explaining to my mum why we are estranged is just me being "cruel and disgusting" when, that is honestly how I feel and the situations I describe are real.

Imagine being the sort of person who, when someone you supposedly care for says "you really hurt my feelings" you reply with "telling me all these horrible things I said and did and how that changes your feelings towards me is soooo cruel and nasty".

That's not how life works.

You don't get to decide you haven't hurt someone's feelings. You certainly don't get to decide that your feelings are more important than theirs when they are at least communicating with you and trying to make you understand.

Imagine the difference if I went to mum and said "when you said x, that really hurt my feelings" and she said "oh Star! I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have said that, Im so upset you would have to come to me and say this". That way her being upset I said something that would be hard to hear, would be directed at herself, not me for saying it. That's where that feeling should go. Then I could have given her a big hug to help her feel better and show that she didn't need to feel bad any more as it is now all OK again.

My estrangement is just situation after situation like that except I got blamed for my hurt feelings and her behaviour just got worse and worse.

Its baffling to me, all of it.

Starblaze -- Who is using/wants to use the children as weapons/pawns is often brought up... In my case, the fact my children exist, gave our estranged family's the ability to attack Us by using CPS to create discord in Our lives. So if We didn't have children, then they would have had no one to complain to about anything... So who exactly was it that used Our children as weapons in My situation?

Someone in Our 'family', on one side or the other, used Our children as a pawn/'weapon' and yet they claim it is Us using Our children against THEM?

As You said, "Its baffling to me, all of it."

Franbern my children are the MOST important people in my life, yes I do love my g.children, but no-where near as much as I do my own children. I would do anything, any time, to avoid any sort of enstrangement form them.

You are not the only one who feels this way. I do, too.

Glitterama out of all your long post about your GD and DiL, this is the sentence that impacted on me the most She is the daughter of one of my two sons *who have become very involved in their own lives and rarely contact me*

Sorry but to me that is the saddest part of your whole post and in your situation the part that would upset me the most.

I’m not suggesting that you should having a cloying, super close relationship with your sons. The apron strings do have to be loosened. But IMHO it’s not normal or healthy to rarely have contact with your adult children.

Maybe your DiL perceives there’s something wrong too, and that affects her relationship with you.

I agree janeainsworth, apron strings do need to be loosened but that shouldn't mean that contact with an AC becomes rare.

Although not specific to this particular thread, there are countless examples of children being used as weapons and pawns by their parents. The OP isn't using her GC in this way and neither are her son and d.i.l.

There are also numerous examples of a healthy and loving relationship with an AC which changes when they get married and have a child of their own. Unfortunately having a well established relationship with your AC is no guarantee that you'll be able to have any relationship at all with their children, your GC.

Holyhannah I think it's silly in some cases like my mums, especially when she has previously shown little interest.

Using social services/cps is definitely an attack and a vile thing to do. I am sure my mum would have if I didn't have older children. She once reported me for benefit fraud after a split with my husband and he moved back in. Due to my mum I had a man with a camera spying outside my house which was terrifying. I then got called in for a meeting and I had actually already sent in the forms, which they just hadn't got to them yet so it was all OK. She really hated that we got back together so this is what she did. Vile. Never committed a crime in my life.

@HolyHannah

I think it’s because many grandparents see the gc as shiny new playthings they can use to reclaim the old feelings they had with their children who are now adults that no longer need parenting, advice or direction. It’s why so many grands seem to balk at the idea of “supervised” visits even though in my eyes it’s just spending time with their family as a whole.

During these “supervised” visits the grandchildren may enjoy spending time with their grandparents but they are still looking to their parents for direction, comfort, care and feeding. It’s only when/if the parents leave that grandparents can assume the control of being the primary caretaker.

My ILs insisted on babysitting right after my first was born - that was an absolute no. They would come over and suggest I take a nap as soon as they sat down. Suggest a date night for my husband and I when I was still struggling to make sure I showered everyday. So many offers to separate us from our infant. My husband used to speak to his parents weekly, but as soon as the baby came, his mother started inundating me with calls and messages and only reached out to him when I didn’t respond.

It was really sad to watch their relationship deteriorate that way. While I got the brunt of the blame for “having too many rules”, my DH was taken to task for not bending to their will, not putting his foot down with me and generally not serving up our kids for them to play house with.

I really do feel for you. I have two sons, and two daughters. I’m afraid it is just different being the paternal grandmother. I’ve had to bite my tongue down be more careful with my sons children, than my daughters. All I can say is....don’t try so hard. Just be laid back, relaxed, and take what’s on offer graciously. So many grandparents make their grandchildren the centre of their lives, and it more often than not leads to problems. We had our time with our children. If you step back, you may find your DIL naturally steps forward.

Should say “ bite my tongue more and be more careful “

I would simply add that whatever can be said about the way AC treat their parents or the way parents treat their AC can be equally expressed from the other point of view. We all need to empathise with each other.

On Monday we had a difficult conversation with an AC where we explained how hurt we felt about something that had happened a couple of days earlier. I am happy to say that the AC fully understood why we felt that way and apologised. Today I had a difference of opinion with another AC on the phone and we discussed it and each saw the other's point of view. If everyone behaved in a mature way as they did (and I did) many of these difficulties could be avoided. The problems arise when one party has to be 'right' all the time.

Nonnie- I could not agree more with you. The examples you’ve given are exactly the kind of relationship I have with my parents, where we can find a middle ground because we want to be in each other’s lives.
As you say, the need to be “right” is often what causes a relationship to break down.

As my own children move towards adulthood that’s the kind of relationship I aspire to continue with them.

In the case of OP here, I feel that’s what’s been lacking. By her own admission she does not have that kind of relationship with her sons, but rather than acknowledging and working on that the emphasis is being put on vilifying DIL and gaining unsupervised to her child.

I’m genuinely baffled that OP isn’t more upset about not having a decent relationship with her own child!

Glitterama
I have to say I am quite shocked at some of the comments and so called ‘advice’ given to you. Apart from the posts that suggest you enjoy the time you do have with your grand daughter, as quite honestly that’s all you can do, I would ignore the rest. I certainly wouldn’t want any of these as a daughter in law!!!

What you've described Nonnie is the relationship we have with our DS and used to have with our ES.

What is AC and ES please. Can’t find them on list of acronyms.

Gwyneth -- AC = Adult Child also sometimes EAC (Estranged Adult Child) and ES/D = Estranged Son/Daughter.

Gwyneth

Glitterama
I have to say I am quite shocked at some of the comments and so called ‘advice’ given to you. Apart from the posts that suggest you enjoy the time you do have with your grand daughter, as quite honestly that’s all you can do, I would ignore the rest. I certainly wouldn’t want any of these as a daughter in law!!!

You don't get to choose your DIL, that's why it's important to understand how to get along with the younger generation.

Luckily I have no MIL, she lost her son to social services and we don't see her. I have an Aunt in law instead, she raised my husband and we get along amazingly well despite our differences because there is mutual respect, adult to adult.

Starblaze -- I just shake my head at the usual attitude, "Don't listen/take in a differing view, keep doing what you are doing (which isn't getting the result you want) and then throw your hands in the air with the dismissive, 'There's nothing you can do.'..." Well yes, actually there is often many things EP's/low contact parents can "do" that might/would improve their relationships. That attitude is up there with, "I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't..." That is rarely true either and if you believe you are constantly in that position, then you need to explore ways to make 'that' not the case -- Like finding mentally healthier ways of dealing with life.

The closest I come to the 'DIYDDIYD' attitude is, "I have multiple choices and none have 'perfect' outcomes... Which is the 'best' thing to do?" Abusers put Us in that position and then again act like that is their situation. Life isn't black and white to healthy thinkers but they want 100% or nothing.

Again, I find it sad that DiL's are getting slammed when having normal and realistic expectations and being told that is unacceptable.

Amelia247 -- "It’s only when/if the parents leave that grandparents can assume the control of being the primary caretaker." -- Control and jealousy are the hallmarks of dysfunctional thinkers. The 'evil spouse' comes along and all of a sudden 'mom' isn't the most important person in their life and when the grand-children come along they don't put the grand-parents first either -- they go to their parents. Instead of accepting and embracing their new position/role they push and create drama and then they get cut off and play the victim.

My 'mom' was jealous of any closeness I had to my father or sister because it was love/attention SHE 'deserved'. I cannot imagine her reaction to the closeness I have to my husband or children. As Starblaze mentioned, our EP's don't want Us to be happy or have someone who loves Us for Us...

janeainsworth -- You made a couple of very strong points.

"She is the daughter of one of my two sons who have become very involved in their own lives and rarely contact me." stood out to me as well. The normal part in that is that they are 'involved with their own lives' but it shouldn't lead to "rare contact".

"Maybe your DiL perceives there’s something wrong too, and that affects her relationship with you."

This observation is beautiful... The fact that her husband seems to have no closeness to his 'mom' and she towards him would make Me ask as a DiL, "Why should I bother if he's not interested in relations with her and vice versa?"

As you said, "I’m not suggesting that you should having a cloying, super close relationship with your sons. The apron strings do have to be loosened. But IMHO it’s not normal or healthy to rarely have contact with your adult children." -- I highlighted the second part because that is so true. I know if I had a healthy relationship with my 'family' we would be in touch regularly. My OF -- Other Family who 'adopted' my husband and I -- are always in touch with each other and who contacts who varies and for what 'excuse'. These exchanges are not scheduled/timed/compared to others etc. They are healthy and therefore both sides make the effort to stay in touch.

Thank you Hannah - I haven’t followed your story closely but I’m glad you have your OF.

Holy Hannah
Thank you will add them to my growing list!!