Domestic Violence from kids to parents

Iam64, I too watched the Harold Shipman programme on tv with particular interest as I lived quite close to the area his GP Practice was in and I still have many friends and relatives in that area. I would have liked the programme to have dug a little deeper into his hatred of elderly people, women in particular. I know that he had an unusual relationship with his mother, who died when he was only 17, and I'm sure I remember hearing that he only casually mentioned to a friend that his mother had died the day before. He seemed to have an emotional detachment from relationships with older women and I'd be interested in learning more about that.

They're not clear to me either hugshelp which I suppose is one way of disrupting the discussion.

I'd be interested in that too Chewbacca.

"Lets keep this thread on topic"

It is on topic apart from the anger over the name Karen. Take Karen out and people are being called out on an inability to take responsibility. Or complaining rather than looking inwards at their own prejudice. Evidence of that exists on this discussion.

The consensus seems to be that abusive children exist. They do and that would be a short discussion.

Here come assertions that abusive children exist from a young age and are domestic abusers from those who wish to perpetuate the idea that abusive people are created in a void.

Talking about where behaviour comes from is not off topic.
It is prejudice to try and drown out opinion on what is known to be fact. ALL behaviour is learnt even if it is learnt that that behaviour is what allows us to cope with our own emotion. Emotion is not learnt, yet needing to be understood and helped by those with responsibility for how others feel.

Silverline was started by Esther Rantzen, in 2013, and at the moment is esp reaching out to people who feel isolated.
www.thesilverline.org.uk/
0800 4 70 80 90

there is also Action on Elder Abuse, which for some reason now calls itself Hourglass, confusingly to me.
wearehourglass.org/
HelpLine 0808 808 8141

Absolutely nobody should be labelling young children as perpetrators of domestic violence.MrsWarren. I think there was just a general feel that the thread had turned into a discussion on why people become abusers, that in places were derailing the original purpose of discussing what we can do about the problem. Yes we need to acknowledge that violent adults were probably abused children, but we all know that not all abused children go on to abuse and we need to put responsibility for the violent behaviour of adults in the court of those adults.

The problem with this thread is that many people are only seeing one conversation where others are seeing two.

Is it really appropriate to discuss adult child to parent violence and include a 7 year old child acting out violently in the same conversation?

And I don’t mean you hugshelp, I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread.

But there are clearly two separate discussions to be had here: adult child to parent violence and young, minor children acting out violently. They are not the same.

There is no shame in admitting to anger-management problems etc these days and asking for help.

I couldn’t agree more. I have nothing but respect for people who recognise they have a problem and seek help.

Is it really appropriate to discuss adult child to parent violence and include a 7 year old child acting out violently in the same conversation?

Yes if it happens. And I've seen it happen. Just because you feel uncomfortable in accepting that it happens and is a growing problem doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. If you're uncomfortable with recognising the problem and don't want to discuss, maybe this thread isn't for you.

Iam64 @ 12.30; I've gone back and read the thread from beginning to end and found only one post, on the first page that was, I suspect, said tongue in cheek. Apart from that, I've not seen anyone promote or condone hitting any child. Strange that that one post should be highlighted when all other posters have condemned it.

Chewbacca

^Is it really appropriate to discuss adult child to parent violence and include a 7 year old child^ acting out violently in the same conversation?

Yes if it happens. And I've seen it happen. Just because you feel uncomfortable in accepting that it happens and is a growing problem doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. If you're uncomfortable with recognising the problem and don't want to discuss, maybe this thread isn't for you.

That’s quite a big assumption you’ve made there Chewbacca.

Please don’t tell me what I am uncomfortable with. As someone who has sat on the Children’s Panel, I am not uncomfortable with nor do I need help in accepting that a young child can act out violently.

In Scotland, at least, we don’t consider young children to be domestic abusers.

These are two different conversations. That’s why the Children’s Panel exists.

I read this and had to bring it here

scoop.upworthy.com/students-learn-empathy-in-denmark-schools

Please don't tell me what I'm uncomfortable with. Read my post again to see what it actually says and not what you thought it said.

hugshelp Mystical and MrsWarren

So much agreement with what you are saying

Nothing is a straight a to b line, everything's a squiggle

Chewbacca

^Please don't tell me what I'm uncomfortable with^. Read my post again to see what it actually says and not what you thought it said.

Why do you continuously try to play games Chewbacca? I’m not interested in a game of point scoring here.

You said:

Just because you feel uncomfortable in accepting that it happens and is a growing problem doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed

Am I missing something?

How is your last comment not derailing this thread?

Am I missing something?

Yes. You're missing the word if that was in my post. If you're uncomfortable with recognising the problem......

A small, but important word.

Adolescent to parent violence has remained underexplored and largely unarticulated within the fields of youth justice, domestic violence, policing, and criminology, particularly in the UK. It is sometimes referred to as ‘parent abuse’, ‘child-to-parent abuse’, ‘child-to-parent violence’ or ‘battered parent syndrome’.

In 2015, the first major study into adolescent (aged over 16) to parent violence (APV) found that 77% of all parent victims were female and 87% of perpetrators male. “It is a hidden abuse of women,” says the study’s author, Rachel Condry, associate professor of criminology at the University of Oxford. “That is why it has to be taken so seriously.”

Met Police figures show reports of child to parent violence (CPV) increased 95% from 920 in 2012 to 1,801 in 2016. However, it is difficult to know whether this is because the issue is more widespread or is reported more often.
“My feeling is that it is more widespread,” says social worker and CPV campaigner Helen Bonnick. “I am seeing lots of links with CPV and children and young people’s mental health – so if, as we are told, that is worsening you would expect there to be a knock-on effect.”

MrsWarren I see the "just because" before the "if" too

Chewbacca

^Am I missing something?^

Yes. You're missing the word if that was in my post. If you're uncomfortable with recognising the problem......

A small, but important word.

No Chewbacca. I don’t think so. Perhaps you should read your post again.

You only used “if” in the context of, if this topic makes you uncomfortable, don’t read this thread.

In an earlier sentence, you said Just because you feel uncomfortable... which is telling me what I feel uncomfortable with.

You’ve been so vocal about the thread being derailed, but here you are derailing it.

What are your thoughts on the information I've provided confirming that children physically attacking their parents is on the increase? Do you agree that the police should be involoved in such cases or do you believe that it should be dealt by child support bodies and social services?

Starblaze

MrsWarren I see the "just because" before the "if" too

Yep.

I came back to this thread because I seen some really interesting comments that I wanted to respond to.

And I get as far as two posts before I am being drawn into ridiculous back and forths that have no bearing whatsoever to the thread.

MrsW

DARVO

I came back cos nosy lol

Chewbacca

What are your thoughts on the information I've provided confirming that children physically attacking their parents is on the increase? Do you agree that the police should be involoved in such cases or do you believe that it should be dealt by child support bodies and social services?

This is a really good question and one which I’ll need to come back to later.

Personally I think it's an issue for social care rather than the police, I have just read the same info on yhis and it says that in a lot of cases the children have witnessed violence or experienced abuse. I dont think the police should be involved with children with additional needs who will also make up part of this figure. I have talked to professionals who work with families where the father is violent, they were very loathe to make generalisations but were saying there was often concern that the male child would also demonstrate violence and that the female child may in later life choose a violent man. I dont know what the picture is like if the sexes are reversed i.e female to male domestic abuse.

The level of disagreement and hair splitting on this thread just doesn't diminish does it. To become polarised as this thread has probably reflects just the level of disagreement in society about the contributing factors to violence within families.

77% of victims were female and 87% of perpetrators male, according to the study Chewbacca refers to at 18.01 today. The study looked at PVV and CPV violence involving adolescents of 16 upwards and parents. I think most of us will agree that's a different demographic than the 7 year old boys also under discussion here.

To answer Chewbacca's question about which agencies should be involved, it's likely that Children's Services and the Police would be most likely first responders. If police are called to domestic violence (horrible phrase) involving an attack by a child on his mother, the police will seek to calm the situation. They'll be reluctant to charge a young person with assault because they recognise the damaging effect of both a criminal conviction and the potential break down of family relationships. They're likely to suggest the family seek help.

That's a key problem. So little expert help is available. We need to invest in our children from cradle to grave. We need to have parenting skills courses readily available, with no stigma attached. We need play therapy for traumatised children .
If we invest in Early Years, all the evidence is outcomes for children's mental health is improved.

I despair that the impact of political decision making, on the blame culture around parenting isn't the focus of discussions here. It's so easy to make parents who don't always get it right into monsters, who are responsible for everything that goes wrong in their children' lives into eternity. None of us is the perfect parent. We do our best. Some parents struggle more than others. Some people should never become parents because the damage they're likely to cause is irreparable. They're not the majority though.

Galaxy, I cross posted with you there and agree with your comments.
The police are the only reliable 999 service these days. Often but not always, they're very good at calming scary situations. The difficulty for them is they have vanishingly few resources to point families in the direction of.

I agree the Karen meme contributed nothing helpful mystical - using insulting labels never does.

I can accept the assertation that all behaviour is learned. But I'm not convinced that all behaviour is learned from one's parents. Especially in a world so heavily influenced by media and social media. But even without that, children have always been exposed to other influences. And yes, of course, it is a parent's job to try and filter out the harmful influences, but it is not always possible. Sometimes other children behave violently at school and it isn't always dealt with perfectly. etc... And certainly not always from the parent that is later abused.

I agree with your analysis on the conflation of different things on this topic Mrs Warren. Small children can and do behave violently. They are not abusers. They are children who are struggling. They can then go on to become violent adults. If they are abusing their parents it is then their responsibility as adults, regardless of their upbringing. It doesn't mean they don't deserve empathy for their past, but they need to own their behaviour as adults and get the help they need to fix it if they cannot do so.

I often reflect that it's odd we don't have proper separate words for children and our grown up children. I suppose I could say offspring, but that sounds a bit cold to me, and adult children is slightly cumbersome so we sometimes forget to differentiate clearly. I sometimes feel wrong talking about 'my children' as it sounds like I am infantilising them, when I very much see them as their own adult selves. But at the same time our relationship is very important so the word should reflect that too.

I love your link starblaze. I don't know about anyone else in my generation but I feel that emotional education was sorely absent from my younger life. As in there was zero. I do know there are some initiatives in our schools to improve this somewhat. But it is against the backdrop of a highly-economy-driven capitalist society where the main values centre around someone's 'worth' where worth is mainly measured on that basis. (I won't digress too far down that hole.) But I see a refreshing attempt at placing other life values higher in the national agenda in the Nordic countries and I hope we follow suit one day. And yes, I too see that it's not a straight line, but a squiggle. Maybe with a lot of branches. Thank you.

www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-08-19-study-finds-significant-increase-child-parent-violence-lockdown#

I agree with many points in this article and the quotes about violent children having safeguarding needs themselves and often having their own trauma. It also concerns me if there are other children witnessing this.

Personally if I were in a situation where I was in physical danger I would call the police even if it was a child. They have training and even if we want to avoid children having criminal convictions hanging over their futures, they may be able to calm the situation.