SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Thank you for your candid answer Smileless l had wondered about that a lot. Going through some awful things myself l often wondered how others cope and did faith play a part.
Which leads me to another question, is there a thread on gransnet for religious questions and discussion?

Like Smileless I too prayed on my knees everyday to bring back my beloved D&GC. For years I did this, until I couldn't do it any more and gave up.

Due to moving, I got my son to message my estD, as I had about 6 boxes in the attic of hers. One box full of her professional dancing photos, medals & certificates. Written on another box was 'Baby book', 'Christening gifts' etc.
She messaged my son back with: ' dump them'.
So I will go through the 6 boxes and keep that which I can't bear to 'dump'

Yogin I hope to you don't get yourself all upset going through those boxes. I know something's will bring back happy memories of the daughter you knew and loved. But don't keep many things. And then put them out of sight. As they will only torture you. I had kept the photos of my son and daughter in law up until I received all the birthday presents and cards etc back all unopened with that vile letter in August. After that I put all the photos of them away and haven't looked at them since. In my living room I have the last photo my 2 grandson's on the mantel piece along with photos of my other grandsons. In my bedroom I have a large frame with 8 photos of my grandson's. I know they won't look like that now. But I like looking at them . I can't look at the photo albums to many photos of my son and daughter in law. I will not torture myself by looking. Especially knowing she has hated me for such a long time.

Don't rush to look and do it when you feel strong enough. ?

WhiffAnd I’m glad you had the courage to
post openly too as you have helped me .

I STILL am a believer that to estrange yourself from a parent has to be because they were verbally and/or physically abusive. And for the life of me I just can’t understand why a child would for any other reason. That’s why I feel that our EC who leave us may be cowards. It’s easier for them to estrange then deal with the truth. For many it is a perceived notion that we did or said things which aren’t true.

Rhinestone thank you when I write I know I never get to the point of anything I am trying to say quickly and am long winded. Better in person.

My son has shown himself to be cruel and cowardly. He was never brought up like that. I was brought up to face my responsibilities and be accountable for my actions. I have never gone out of my way to hurt anyone. If I have said or did something to cause offence I have always taken responsibility and apologised and made sure I never repeated my mistake.

I was bullied at junior school( that's what it was called in those days) and continue being bullied at secondary school until I was 14. And finally had enough. That's when I realised bullies are cowards. I was an easy target a very shy fat kid who was clever.

What our estranged children have done and said about us is just another form of bullying. But they should know better.

I know if my husband was alive today our son would not have done what he has. I turned a blind eye to a lot of things he and my daughter in law said and did. Times he let me down at the last minute and excuses for not seeing me when I lived over 100 miles away. Perfect example my brother and sister in law's wedding in 2016 they didn't come because my daughter in law was heavily pregnant and the journey and the long day would be to much as she had to rest doctor's orders. Only found out after May last year that was a lie. They traveled and went to a friend's wedding the same day. She posted pictures of them dancing on Facebook. My brother and daughter saw them but kept it from me as they knew I would be hurt. My brother wasn't bothered about them not going but I was . As my brother and daughter knew I would be.

My daughter is married to a wonderful man. I thought my son had married a good woman I was wrong. But what gets me they have been together since they where 17 and waited until they where 33 to decide that I am vindictive and manipulative as my son put it. Will never understand why he says that as I am neither. He just threw accusations at me via email and letter. But I am not even allowed to ask why he said those things which where lies.

Cruel and cowardly. Hope my 3 grandson's don't develop those traits when they become adults.

"I STILL am a believer that to estrange yourself from a parent has to be because they were verbally and/or physically abusive"

I think that emotional abuse is another justifiable factor, having observed someone I know go through this with her mother. That may be verbal or it may be by subtle actions such as withdrawal of affection, the silent treatment or other things.

I am NOT suggesting in any way that estranged parents must have done any of those things. Every story is different. But emotional abuse which can be hardest to see but so so deeply felt and so damaging can be a justifiable reason for estrangement. I also believe and have seen examples on here of AC being emotionally abused by their partners, apparently resulting in the AC estranging from their poor parents.

Estrangement and fear of estrangement are SO hard!

That may be verbal or it may be by subtle actions such as withdrawal of affection, the silent treatment or other things.

This.

I am just posting to thank you all for your messages to me yesterday about living in the present day and to keep looking forward to the arrival of my adult sons baby in June which I know I must start putting effort in to do that.

In some of the posts I see that someone asked Smileless2012 if she had Christian beliefs and had that helped her.
Like Smileless 2012 answered about how she had prayed to God to return the love of her son and to bring back her GC
I too prayed day and night and lit candles every time I went to a church service and at times told God I was upset and angry with him because I did not feel that I deserved an unhappy life and the arrival of GC should be the greatest time for joy. When I knew that God was the one that made the plans I said to him then I will hand all this problem over to you and do as you will for me but I will have what joy
I can from this life as it is too short to be unhappy for ever.
From that time I did feel a bit happier, and I am glad I still have my faith even though at times I tell God things should have been different.
I know I do not post too often and even yesterday it seems
a few replies upset an EAC which would not be my intention
but all of us have our pain in different ways and I just wanted to post on this thread because apart from talking to God about my troubles and upset there is no other outlet than a place like this.
Wishing all that the rest of your Easter is a happy one.

Madgran77 I hope you are not saying I verbally or physically abused my son in anyway shape or form.

I can assure you I didn't do either. We brought our children up equally. And continued to treat them equally after my husband died.

I know first hand what bad parenting is my husband's parents were experts. And perfect example of bad parents , in law's and grandmother. My father in law died when our daughter was 4 and son a baby.

My Dad was brought up by a father and step mother who my father always said didn't spare the rod. He would never say abuse. Also him and his siblings were malnourished.

Are you estranged from any of your children. Did you verbally or physically abuse them?

I am so mad that you said that.

Madgran77 I have just re-read your post also and am a bit surprised as you have always been one to see both sides of the argument.

Your line saying that you are a believer that to estrange yourself from a parent has to be that they were verbally and /or physically abusive is quite a statement.

Abuse takes in a big argument there is physical/emotional
coercive sickening sexual deviation it is too horrible to think about. I brought my children up always believing that are worthy of good treatment from everyone and they could reach for the stars and achieve whatever they wanted in this life as long as they put in the effort.
Some AC estrange from us because they get in with the wrong company they make bad life choices and some even get on the path of drug abuse at those times the parent cannot help them as the AC has to hit rock bottom and try to help themselves. Pure heartache for the EAP.
I have seen EAC on this thread and they have their own stories they are offered support and are not told this thread is not for them.

3Nanny6I made that statement not Madgran. And yes I did leave out emotional and sexual abuse too. But some of our EC cut us off for nine of those reasons. My point being that they are cowards to have a conversation with us and hash it out like adults should be able to do. They don’t want toe cousin so they ignore us and yes that is abusive as well. I think the worst is to be ignored by them without explanation. Just my opinion.

Sorry I meant they don’t want to deal with us so they ignore us.

Sorry Madgran77 read your first paragraph and thought it was you saying it. Heart felt apologies didn't realise you where quoting Rhinestone.

But the rest of my post still stands.

Quote-3nanny6: Madgran77 I have just re-read your post also and am a bit surprised as you have always been one to see both sides of the argument.
Your line saying that you are a believer that to estrange yourself from a parent has to be that they were verbally and /or physically abusive is quite a statement.

The "bold" did not work on my post 3nanny6...I was quoting Rhinestone who has acknowledged that ..thankyou Rhinestone

I did say in my post that I was NOT saying that any estranged parents must have done those things.

I am so sorry that I made you so angry Whiff , certainly not my intention to upset anyone atall. It was just that as Rhinestone did not mention emotional abuse as another possible factor in estrangement I thought it was important that that as a potential reason was acknowledged. Particularly as so many estranged parents on this forum talk about their AC being in emotionally abusive relationships which I can identify with. And AC who have estranged quite often reference emotionally abusive parents.

Rhinestone I absolutely agree that ignoring without explanation is cowardly and cruel.

Chewbacca Thankyou - "This" exactly! Painful, powerful and damaging stuff!

A lot of the time, people brought up by narcissists are actually attracted to narcissists because it feels familiar.

I think facing things fair and square is important for healing. If you are a narcissist maybe you can learn better ways of relating. If you are married or in a relationship with one, maybe you can learn healthier ways. As you grow more healthy yourself you will naturally gravitate towards a more healthy type of relationship and want to let go of destructive relationships.

None of us can change anyone except ourselves, but as we work on ourselves we can find new and meaningful relationships that we deserve - even if they are not the ones we had. We can learn to love others, instead, who love us too.

A lot of the time, people brought up by narcissists are actually attracted to narcissists because it feels familiar

But it is not a given that an emotionally abusive person is a Narcissist.

You're right Madgran emotional abuse is in many cases the reason why estrangement happens. It can be as you say, that children have been emotionally abused by their parents and it can be that an AC becomes involved with an emotionally abusive partner.

The latter is our experience sadly.

I do think it's important to be aware of who reads and posts on this thread in particular Onwardandupward. I am not disagreeing that someone raised by a narcissist may be 'attracted' to a narcissist in adult life, just as people who were physically and witnessed physical abuse during childhood, can be 'attracted' to someone similar.

That said, there are EP's here myself included, whose once close and loving relationship with their child has been torn apart and destroyed because of their narcissistic partner.

I apologise if I am being oversensitive to your post but fairly recently, there was an ongoing problem which was very upsetting for EP's being made to feel that the only reason their EAC was with a narcissist, was because they themselves were narcissistic.

I was actually on several occasions called a narcissist by a couple of posters who thankfully are no longer on GN. I appreciate that that horrible experience has no doubt made me very sensitive and again I apologise if I have over reacted.

I was not meaning anyone in particular is / was a narcissist but its true that we are often attracted to people who feel similar/ homely.

Some who are raised in an abusive home may be attracted to an abuser. It's not their fault but it feels familiar. I don't mean to offend anyone and every situation is different because all people are different. Not every abuser is a narcissist and not every narcissist is an abuser- not every person is a narcissist or an an abuser and Smileless you seem to have taken my post quite personally which I am sorry about. I can see that being called a narcissist in the past must have been upsetting, but as I didn't know that I can only apologise for any upset which was not intended.

Just a thought, but have any of you mothers who have no contact with your kids thought about adopting someone else? There are loads of people who don't have a kind mother figure, who would absolutely dream of having a positive input in their life. I've even read about people adopting grandchildren, too. It seems a shame when you have so much love to give, not to give it to someone even if it's not the one/s you planned.
No offence intended, but I genuinely wondered if you would consider this? I have even hoped IRL to meet a mother figure who would be kind, nurturing and emotionally present- and if I am thinking this, I am sure other adult kids must also wish for the same.

There might be a reason for all this pain and abandonment and maybe there's someone else to love and be loved by

OnwardandUpward am finding your posts very offensive. I do not nor need to adopted a substitute for my son.

Can't remember are you a parent? If so have you a child that has decided to throw you away like a piece of old rubbish. If so you bloody well adopt however many substitutes you like.
And stop making stupid suggestions to the rest of us.

The whole idea is as stupid as thinking that a new baby can replace one that has died.

Putting flowers at the end of your posts does not make your post any less offensive.

Thanks for responding Onwardandupward you touched a raw nerve but you weren't to know and I appreciate your apology.

I've read about people adopting GC too and there have been GN's asking about doing this but it wouldn't be right for us. It just wasn't meant to be.

Thank you. It's very hard to read that estrangement is abusive and taking away grandchildren is abusive. I was so upset I haven't been sleeping. If that is abusive then I'm an abuser for just trying to live a happy life that u couldn't of had otherwise.
I think that mentioning different types of abuse is important as well.
Its so hard to make people see my mum was abusive as it took years and years for me to even know what she was doing and I don't have years and years to explain to other people all the ways she made me feel bad about myself or had me running around and leaving myself short because she guilted me into it.
I'm not abusive for estranging or telling my boys the truth about why I didn't want a relationship with her.
Someone explained it to me that love is not a transaction and you shouldn't get love rewarded for what you give and what you do or even how you look. You don't expect things from people, not even their time. You just are a person they want to be with and look after and it goes both ways and nothing is hard or happens in a way that makes you exhausted and stressed. There isn't any guilt or pressure, you don't have to set yourself in fire to keep them warm. I haven't got the words she used so I hope I'm understood.

My mum made me a mess and I couldn't enjoy life at all always worried about what she would say or do next and what rumour she spread about me I would have to sort out.
I don't want to be a person strong enough to let what she says and does slide off me or I wouldn't be me at all. I can be me and be happy with myself without her around.
She is a bad person and bad people don't get to have it their way or karma doesn't exist.
Things and actions aren't abusive unless an abusive person is the one doing it. We all make mistakes but it. Is only abusive if you do it on purpose or put your feelings before someone elses and say and do and expect what makes you happy and make them pay the price.

Armadillo I am sorry you had a rotten mother. You say you don't want to be a strong person to let what she says about you slide off you. You are very strong person otherwise you couldn't have got yourself away from her and live your own life. And having the courage to post on here and telling you story shows great strength .

My husband's parents said and did horrible things. Never physical abuse but verbal also by ignoring my husband is also a form of abuse. His father wanted to send him to boarding school when he was 13 because he didn't like his friends. Luckily his mom wouldn't let him. That's when my husband joined the scouts to escape and have something just for himself. His life changed he changed . Joining gave him more confidence to face his home life. When my brother joined that's when he got to know my family. Like my dad he saw what a real family was like.

Even as an adult when we started to go out he would still never stick up for himself. So eventhough in those days I wasn't the woman I am today I had to be strong enough for us both. We put up with a lot as he would never abandon his parents. Once we brought our first house he moved out and we lived together doing up the house and married the following year. But because of my home life I went home every weekend to stay with my parents. We would visit his for a couple of hours for Sunday tea.

My dad to get away from his home life and joined the army aged 17. This was during the second world war. He was in Egypt, India and Burma fighting. In Naples they helped out with the plague. Because of his childhood he protected a young man from the bullies as he protected his siblings. When he was demobbed he never went home. The family of the young man took him in as a thank you. He saw what a loving family was . But really understood what family meant when he met my mom.

For someone to suggest that I in any shape or form physically or verbally abused my son is highly offensive. And had made my angrier that I have even been for decades.

My son and daughter where both brought up the same. Both grew up knowing they were loved and cherished. And had all our attention. My parents worshipped them . Unfortunately my mom in law took a dislike to her only granddaughter from when she was born . My father in law was the complete opposite and adored her. It was different when our son was born my mother in law was all him , my father in law adored him to but died when he was 8 months old. Her attitude to her only 2 grandchildren never changed whilst they where children. It changed when they became adults she treated them as they had treated their own son.

For all that my son and daughter in law have said about me I don't hate them. I still love my son and grandchildren. But the love I had for my daughter in law died when I found out she had written FIL died to get away from MIL. But I don't hate her for it.

Only ever hated 2 people in my life those where my in laws. But we never abandoned them. I stuck with my mother in law after my husband's death and spent the last 2 days of her life by her bedside for 15 hours each day. I promised my husband I would look after her after he died I kept my promise. And I did that for someone I hated.

That is why anyone suggesting I in anyway hurt my son ,daughter in-law or grandson's so offensive and hurtful.

For someone to suggest that I in any shape or form physically or verbally abused my son is highly offensive. And had made my angrier that I have even been for decades

Whiff if this refers to my earlier I comment, which I have since clarified, I can only say again that I was not suggesting that atall.