SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

It sounds as if you've been to hell and back Whatdayisit. You got your son back because thank goodness he was eventually able to see what his wife was really like.

I don't know if son's are "more likely to estrange to keep their partner quiet" than daughters. Both I'm sure are not adverse to cutting out their parents rather than stand up to their partner, that said maybe son's fear losing contact with their children if they refuse to go along with the wishes of their children's mother, especially if they're given the 'it's me/us or them' ultimatum.

The "suspicion and disbelief of others" is a bitter pill to swallow and having been estranged for more than 8 years now, experience has taught me that that response tends to come from those who are not estranged or who have taken the decision to estrange.

Where as I've always found here on GN, an understanding of and sympathy for those who estranged abusive parents, it is not always reciprocated in relation to EP's who lose their child/ren through no fault of their own.

A row would be awful wouldn't it, especially one that is then blown up out of all proportion with an AC saying they never want anything to do with you again, but when there's nothing, and despite seeing subtle changes in your relationship, the estrangement comes totally unexpectedly, it's impossible to out what that's like into words.

I seem to have hit a new, unexpected and rather unpleasant 'bump' on the road to living with estrangement which your post 3nanny has prompted me to talk about on here.

For sometime now, years TBH I haven't thought about buying things for our GC which is to be expected after so long, and never having had a relationship with them.

What I was not expecting though, and first noticed a couple of weeks ago, was my intolerance to the sound of children in cafes, restaurants, shops etc. They seem so loud and it's akin to that awful noise the chalk would sometimes make on the blackboard. It sets my teeth and my nerves on edge; I can't stand it.

We're at our lodge having arrived Saturday, and our neighbours little 3 year old GS was here outside. A sweet little chap but I had to come inside and close the door to get away from the noise.

I was not expecting this especially after so long and feel as if I'm rapidly turning into a grumpy old woman before my time.

Whatdayisit my husband never stood up for me against his parents. It caused rows but never held it against him I loved him so much I put up with them for his sake. Perfect example we had been married a year his father said your to fat if I pay you will you lose weight. I walked out the house and sat in the car. That was a mild example. After he's father died his mother got worse ,and became evil after my husband died. But I never gave up on her.

Some son's give up on the parents but not all. My husband was a good man who had rotten parents. My dad had a rotten dad and step mother who beat him . He took the beatings so his younger brother and half siblings didn't. He was the oldest. Apart from the youngest who had downs they where also malnourished. He never gave up on them even after his dad died.

Both my husband and dad didn't know what it was to be loved until my husband met me and my dad met my mom. They both found what they where missing in their lives.

Because of my mom his brothers and sisters always had birthday and Christmas presents and more importantly love and attention.

My parents and my mom's side of the family loved my husband and he always knew it.

If anyone should have abandoned their parents it's them but they never did.

I was very lucky to have 2 such wonderful men in my life. And am lucky I have a wonderful brother and son in law.

My son doesn't want me. But he and my daughter in law are brilliant parents. I know my grandson's will grow up knowing they are loved and have plenty of attention. What happens when they become adults and choose partners I pity their partners . But that's way in the future as all 3 are under 5.

Don't think that really answers your question.

Bad parents have good children . Just as good parents have bad children.

Smiles you could never be a grumpy old woman. Grumpy old woman just moan all the time and never offer to help people.

Think of you as a wise beautiful owl . Gliding on the air currents . A barn owl I think.

After having the presents returned last year. I would never spend money on something that will never be used.

I love giving presents but a lot of the time they are things I have made. My brother and sister in law when home last week with 12 jars of my home made preserves. Also I make things out of cross stitch and bake.

I moved to my new home nearly 2 years ago. So people here got to know me before my son disappeared. Also all the people who know are friends and relatives who care and love me. So I am lucky in that respect.

Enjoy your time at the lodge with Mr S. ??

Where as I've always found here on GN, an understanding of and sympathy for those who estranged abusive parents, it is not always reciprocated in relation to EP's who lose their child/ren through no fault of their own. - I'm afraid I have to agree smiles - it's one reason I read few threads on the estrangement board and sometimes slip away even from this one. I see attempts at understanding the other side of the coin coming from one direction rather too often.

I am oversensitive to all noise smiles - don't think that's a sign of grumpiness, its not something we can control.
Shouting 'sod off you little so-and-so's' - now that would be grumpy.

Myself and siblings had a very rough time growing up and never stopped giving our parents another chance Whiff. I think these days a lot of it comes from advice from counsellors, therapists, self-help manuals. While I'm sure disengaging yourself from abusing relationships is necessary, I think it's advocated for many problems that could be solved with a little discussion, and some compromise. I do, however, see a lot of people who find the word compromise unpalatable. There seems to be more value on personal freedom, and personal entitlement, and less on co-operation, community, and mutual responsibility. But maybe that's me seeing things through the lens of a grumpy old woman.

My house in utter chaos still. The heating/hot water situation is turning into a saga, with the plumber saying it's an electrical fault, and the electrician saying it's a plumbing fault, while they check things under floorboards, and root around at the back of cupboards and trace pipes and wires heaven knows where. Old houses...

Smileless, I love children, but not all the time, especially others children when they are loud and in my space.Even grandchildren that we love to bits, we give them back. In our case and your we missed that opportunity. Other people’s children remind us of that loss. I don’t think you’re being grumpy to want peace and quiet.

I suppose living on my own noises don't bother me . It's nice to hear life going on around me. Also I think how awful it would be being deaf.

I use to like silence but having jaundice 4 years ago changed all that. Because I was so ill I had to have the TV on all day then I brought a radio. I couldn't stand the quiet. Nearly dieing made me decide on what I wanted out of life. Didn't know I could have died until my consultant told me when he discharged me. Knew I was ill but didn't realise it was that close. It was a wake up call. 5 months of being ill gives you a lot of time to think what I wanted out of life.

No one was dependent on me anymore my mom died in February and I started feeling ill in the March . Just put it down to being run down and looking after people for years. Then thought I had flu. Wasn't until I had to call the Dr to visit me in April and she said I was yellow . Sounds silly but I couldn't see I was yellow.

Being told you are dangerously ill and had to go on an acute ward was frightening. My son knows all this and still threw me away.

My 3 decisions where to finally lose weight lost 7st and the battle goes on to lose the last stone and bit, get fit which I did but Covid stopped the classes but starting new on Friday and move house which I did nearly 2 years ago.

Sometimes life gives us wake up calls. I don't recommend nearly dieing but think it was a good thing for me. Didn't think that at the time but looking back it's what I needed.

Moving over 100 miles away gave me my identity back. As people got to know me not someone's wife then widow or the children's mom. Even though moving eventually mean I lost my son and grandson's. I don't regret it for a minute. Love it here and get to see my daughter and family every week . Apart from my son which I have come to terms with because of all your help. I love my life. Still miss my husband. But that's the price I had to pay loving and being loved.

I have my down days but I love my life. Told a friend the other day she had to stop just existing and live the life she wants. Since I moved she has gone back to how she was when we first met. She has no excuses. Divorced in the 90's no children and no man for decades in her life and no money worries. Just 5 cats to look after.

Having all of you has made my life better. People who understand and know how it feels makes a big difference. Oh dear I am sounding sentimental but I always say what I mean. Better stop now before the violins begin to play. ?

Hugs hope your heating gets sorted out soon. Last thing you need after being ill. ?

Smileless2012 sorry you have hit a "bump in the road" and it is making you feel like a grumpy old woman.
I can go along with the loud and even sometimes screams of young children particularly in bigger shops and gardens you are right it can be grating and even a few times I have thought to myself oh what a noise.
In regard of my post about the dresses I was looking at for my GC it gave me a few happy moments and TBH I thought how much I miss them but then carried on shopping. It was about ten minutes later when a child in the shop was screaming and shouting at the top of their voice because they wanted something a parent would not buy them and what a carry on they made, I was glad when the father of the child went and exited the shop.
I am more than tolerant with little children I see when out on dog walks as usually they are relaxed and happy and almost always they want to come and pet the dog (even though she is fairly big) they never seem to be afraid although sometimes their parents are. My dog is used to it now and will always allow a few strokes and she does get tempted to try and lick them which I have to discourage.
Enjoy the lovely weather and the peace at the lodge hopefully without too many noisy children.
Hi to everybody else who has posted I cannot write too much at the moment as I need to clear a few things in my back garden as my neighbour is putting up a new fence and I
need to move some stuff that may be in the way.

Thank you everyone for your support.

Sparkling - please don't give up hope, but also try not to let it dominate and spoil your life. My estrangement from DD cast a shadow over the last years of my darling husband's life, although we did not know that it was the last few years. Nor did DD, which must be difficult for her. We just need to try to live in the present and embrace what joy there is - easy to say and hard to do.

Whatdayisit - I am so sorry to hear of your pain and to read your story, which resonates with me. My SIL hates me, so my DD is sleeping with the enemy.

Whiff - so good to read such a positive post from you and to know that you are enjoying your life. In the end, that's all we can aspire to do, to strive to be happy, as life is so fragile.

Smileless, my dearest friend, my heart goes out to you. I have learnt from the loss of my DH that everyone's bereavement is different and the process ricochets, it is not linear. Estrangement is a form of bereavement, but a complicated bereavement, because you can never really come to terms with it whilst the person who has estranged you is still living. The mourning is overshadowed by an extra layer of pain. But all of your friends here can see what a lovely, caring human being you are - and I really, genuinely believe that your DS will recognise this in the fullness of time. In fact, I am sure that he already does so, but sometimes pride and circumstances make it difficult to retract from a position, however unreasonable and untenable. Huge hugs to you, my dear, and to all who are suffering.

Thanks everyone, what a great bunch you are.

Seeing families and GP's with their GC out and about has always been difficult. As you say Sparkling, they're a stark reminder of what we've lost.

Our neighbours here car was involved in an accident on Sunday, they're fine but the car had to be toed. Their son and D arrived in the afternoon from Sheffield, a 2.5 hour drive away, to take them back home so they could bring their other car over.

We said how lovely it must be to have AC who are ready and able to help out when needed, something that we can't have with DS living in Aus.

Despite good friends and other family, I felt so vulnerable, alone and afraid when Mr. S. was struggling before his op last March. I think that lovely little boy, running around and calling out 'grandma' intensified that sense of loss that we have and our worries about what will happen when we're old and when inevitably, one of us has lost the other.

We're having a great time here, enjoying the fabulous weather and going to places we weren't able to visit last summer due to the restrictions.

Making the most of what we do have, for as long as we can is all we can do and I know how blessed we are to have one another.

Smiles if anything my husband dieing young as taught me enjoy the now . What ifs wear you down and stop you enjoying the now. I had to learn all that the hard way. That's why if I can help anyone I will. But only with things I know or have experienced. I am still grieving for my husband as he was my other half of me. I grieved for mom why she was alive as I lost my mom long before her body died.

Estrangement is another sort of grief. And in my experience it's the hardest sort to come to terms with. But with all of your help I am coping. I have my moments when it gets to me but I then I think of all the people who wanted children and could never have them. My best friend and her husband after multiple miscarriages where told they would never have a family. Luckily they have a strong marriage and been married nearly 35 years .

For all my son has done I don't regret having him. As he was a wonderful son for 32 years. I was lucky I had quality time with 2 of my grandson's with him.

I always try and find a positive out of a negative. Not always easy but I manage. It's the only way I get through each day. Everyone has to find their way. And it's hard. But life would be boring if it was easy.

I know how lucky I am to have my daughter and family. I try not to worry her . If I can just get my heart problem and kidney infections sorted I know it will stop her worrying so much.

Smiles I wish you and Mr S could visit your son in Australia or he and family visit you. Perhaps next year . I do hope so.

Well those weeds won't pull them self up. Enjoy the rest of your time at the lodge. ??

Hello again. Thankyou for all your kind comments. I am sorry to have posted out of the blue the other day then not returned but something blew up at work unexpectedly and has knocked me for 6 this week.
I feel one's mh never recovers from the estrangement. I know i have been blessed with fixing the relationship with ds and it is as solid as you can believe these things are. My mind still has hauntings and socially i keep myself to myself i maybe feel tainted and still that feeling of a failing mum.
Hope nobody thinks i am self pitying i am meaning that even though we got to the other side the scars are still healing.
In no way does that mean i expected apologies etc. I mean reuniting does not heal the wounds of feeling a failure.
I am lucky to have come through for now and not having the waves of emotion and the different grieving processes. Trusting friends is a different matter i don't really bother any more. Thankyou all for your kindness.

Smiles, I have been where you were when you husband was so ill, luckily it was a good outcome, you will hopefully have lots more good years together, don’t worry about tomorrow, it will sort itself out. Enjoy what you have. I spent too long before he was ill worrying about the situation and it never altered it one bit. Sending you and all those in that position a big hug.

It is hard when you watch other families doing things that you imagined yourself doing with your own family that is denied you,*Smiles*.
So good to hear you're having a great time, though.

Well done on losing the weight Whiff - I managed to lose 1 st but need to lose 2 more and I seem to have got stuck. I must let your example re-inspire me. Everything you have shared about your outlook on life is very inspiring.

I wish I knew how to convince you that you're not a failure whatdayisit but I can't convince myself either. I do however take comfort in knowing we're not alone. Humans are fallible and times change in terms of what people expect from parents, from relationships etc. We can all only muddle on doing our best.

We finally have hot water I am going to enjoy a very long soak in a lovely bath.

Thankyou hugshelp i hope you enjoyed a long, hot soak.

I hope i am not coming across as being selfpitying. I am in a happy place family wise. I feel the estrangement is similar to being stabbed deeply bleeding for years healing and seeping periodically and even though it should be heeled the scar invisible to most is still something i carry in my own head.
I feel that is the same for everyone who is contributing to this thread??

You express yourself very well whatdayisit. Not self-pitying at all to my mind.

As it happens I felt very much that wounds were re-opened today, and your words really resonate with me. ES asked, via DD, for a carload of his stuff to be dropped off at a third-party location, for him to collect next time he's in the area visiting DD and others. (DD lives close to us ES 200 miles away).

There were story books that I read him when he was small, models I sat and painted with him, homework I tried to help him with until he got too clever for my aid, and lots of other mementoes.
So, we have gone from: 'I'll be in touch, when I'm ready to talk, in a few weeks mum,' to us dropping his stuff in someone else's home so he doesn't have to see us to collect it, via several years radio silence. He didn't even contact us himself about what he wanted.

Hurting tonight. Hopefully I'll be ready to reframe by morning.

Have a good night all. x

Hugshelp my son put in his email in May last year I love you mom but don't like you. Give me time. Which I did . In August when he sent all the birthday and birth presents and cards all unopened with a vile letter stating zero contact. It hurt so much but with help here I have come to terms with it. I would rather have no contact than some of the horrible phone calls and texts some of you have had.

I worry everyday about my son and grandson's but will not let it dominate my life. He's choice. One I hope he lives to regret.

At least even though you are hurting you now know that your relationship with him is over. For me I am happier knowing there is no hope than hold out hope every day. And it's a relief knowing everytime the phone rings or I have a text it isn't him.

I know this may sound like I don't care but I do very much. But I will not waste anymore time hoping for something that isn't going to happen. Also my son has shown how little he cares as he knew I was waiting for a bubble echo on my heart. Which proved positive . For the sake of my health and all the people who love and care for me I have to put myself first. May sound selfish. But I have neurological problems which effects my limbs and luckily the tablets have stopped the seizures which I have had since I was 29. My son was 6 months old and my daughter 4 when I got ill. I am 63 now. Along with my heart problems I am waiting to speak to an urologist as I have recurring UTIs and kidney infections.

Sounds like I am a moaner but I am not. Whatever life throws at me I just get on with it. I promised my husband a lot of things the main one was to live the best life I can and I do.

And I love my life . It's not perfect because the one person I want and need I can't have and that's my husband. Grief never stops but I learn to cope. I have my bad days but there are more good days. So I consider myself lucky.

Really don't know how to end this post but look at all the good things in your life and cherish those. ?

I get where you are coming from whiff.
We just have to move on. It might not be to a place we wanted to go, but we make the best of it.
Visiting our DD this afternoon, which we're really looking forward to.

Your posts are a powerful description of the depth of the pain that estrangement causes Whatdayisit.

"estrangement is similar to being stabbed deeply bleeding for years heeling and seeping periodically" spot on.

For me, your experience having now reconciled with your son, but still being very aware of the scars that you've been left with and how aware you are, of how this has fundamentally changed you, really illustrate what a life changing experience estrangement is.

Nor for the first time, I'm wondering if the extent of the damage estrangement causes is considered by our EAC, if they are even aware and if they realise that not all EP's will ever want to reconnect with them some time in the future even though that is what they want to happen.

Hope you're feeling a little better today hugshelp. We also had similar requests from our ES via his brother but Mr. S. and I had opposing points if view on how to deal with them.

Our ES would have deliveries made to our business to be sure there'd be someone to receive them and after our estrangement some books arrived so DS came to collect them while his brother sat in the car down the road!!!

He was fortunate that it was his dad he saw as he handed the books over, had it been me I would have told his that if his brother wants the books he'll have to come and collect them himself.

A few weeks later DS arrived at our home and said he'd come to collect the few items his brother had left behind. I told him that if he wanted them he'd have to come and get them himself. That his brother's behaviour was "bloody ridiculous if he couldn't bring himself to come to the home he'd lived in for more than 20 years".

Much to my annoyance Mr. S. carefully packaged everything up and left it on his door step, 15 doors down the road. We were talking about it last night, prompted by your post and he asked me what I'd have done with this things if he hadn't left them outside his front door, as there was no way he'd have ever come to the house to get them.

I said he'd have been given a deadline when we were having a clear out prior to moving, and if he hadn't picked them up, they'd have ended up in the skip.

PS meant to say that Mr. S. never got so much as a 'thank you' but when ES did refer to it he said his dad had dumped his things on the door step with no means of protection and if he hadn't been in, they'd have been ruined because it was raining.

Just another of his lies and thinking about it now, those things being unceremoniously dumped in the skip would have made a much better tale of how horrible his parents are, and he wouldn't even have had to lie about it!!!

Smiles unfortunately to make themselves feel better about what they have done. They make us out be to the evil wicked parents. That have brought this upon themselves.

They are the poor innocent children who have done no wrong. How can their parents be so cruel as to love them unconditionally and give them all the attention any child could wish for.

How dare they look after our every need. Put a roof over their head and food on the table when they lived with us. Such cruel behaviour.

And parents who love and care for their children need to be punished.

Estrangement is that punishment. But unlike a prison sentence there is no release date or even parole.

When my son sent me that email I felt like I had been tried, convicted and sentenced and I had no clue I had committed a crime.

At least a criminal gets to defeat themselves . Also see all the evidence against them.

All I got was lies and fantasy via the email and months later that letter .

But I would rather have silence from him than anymore vile emails or letters.

I struggle everyday day with wondering how he is and my grandson's. But at least I know my grandson's are loved and well cared for.

Can't help but wonder if they even remember me or have they parents erased me completely out of their lives. It would break my heart if they had removed the photos of my husband and mom they had on the walls. They are both dead . And thankfully haven't had to suffer like we do.

The children were our world and my parents plus extended family members.

One of my neighbours her sister is going through hell with her daughter. No one in the family can understand why she has turned on her parents and the rest of the family. I just told her want I had learnt here and what happened to me. Hopefully it will make them not feel so alone.

She said she didn't realise it was so common. Adult children turning on their parents.

Luckily he took all the things he wanted when I moved house. So I didn't have to go through what you and Mr S have.

With your help Smiles and all here I keep going. Luckily I have my daughter and family . Wish your son didn't live in Australia Smiles and you and Mr S had him in this country. You both deserve that.

Massive hugs to all. ??

Luckily my son took all his things.

Honestly must read what I type more carefully ???

Good Afternoon everyone and hope you are all okay. Just reading the last few posts and seeing how upset some of you were about your ESs asking for property they had left at your homes. They do not even think how upsetting this is and when they get a third party involved as a go between it is even more
annoying and like you Smileless I would have felt like saying collect the property yourself and stop being bloody ridiculous.
I have not got property belonging to any of mine at my home however I am upset about my eldest daughter who I have had a good enough relationship, but since I talked to the SW eldest daughter has stopped phoning/texting me which TBH I was half expecting and I know she is siding with ED in blaming me for making trouble with SS. In my honest opinion when I found the children alone in the house with someone I know ED had known for about 3 weeks in my mind there was no question about it and nothing was up for discussion I was telling the SW about it for the safety of the children even though I knew that eldest daughter would come down on the side of ED and would have wanted me to turn a blind eye. I know she cares for her sister but surely the childrens safety is important.

To get onto some happier news DS became a new Dad on
Saturday morning and firstly I still find it hard to believe that
my youngest child has become a father, he even cannot believe he has now got a son. We are so happy and for me I
hope it is a turning point for better times ahead which sadly have been lacking this last few years.
Mother and Baby are well and healthy and have now left hospital, my son has shown me many photographs of Baby
and also a few he took in the delivery room which he was probably not supposed to have done but it was all good.
It was a long weekend because he took her to the hospital Friday morning at 5.30am but they sent her home at 10.00am saying things are not ready yet. By 4.00pm she was in pain and her waters broke so he took her back to hospital
and they took her in. DS was allowed to go into delivery suite at 9.00pm as things were now progressing and she was calling out for him. Baby made his way into the world at 4.45 am Saturday so we were all tired and DS was phoning me
all the time updating me. So yes GC no 4 has arrived.
Take care All.

3nanny6 congratulations on being a nannie again. Glad mother,father and grandson are doing well. Hopefully you will get to hold him soon. ??

I totally get where you are coming from about them collecting the stuff smiles. I had mixed thoughts about it. One was that I don't think a stranger would be so thoughtless and I would certainly not behave that way. However, I decided that I wanted no accusations of me trying to entrap him into anything he didn't want by expecting him to be able to ask for his stuff. He knows my door is open if he ever wants to try but I'm not waiting around in the doorway.

* unfortunately to make themselves feel better about what they have done. They make us out be to the evil wicked parents.* I agree Whiff. I suspect also that for some having an evil failure of a mother to blame anything on that happens in life is a rather handy resource. One that society perpetuates to a large extent.
At least a criminal gets to defeat themselves . Also see all the evidence against them. Yes, that still really gets my goat. Again, I wouldn't treat anyone that way. Imagine dumping your romantic partner and refusing to tell them why - people would find that appalling.

I can see your pain Whiff and you confront it very openly. You are brave and strong and caring. It's good to have you to talk to.

3nanny - congrats on your wonderful news. I'm sorry about the other stuff but I am overjoyed for you about the new addition to your family. xxx