Understanding estrangement

I think it is right to leave those memories. If someone has enough abusive behaviours towards you that you do remember clearly and you don't speak to them anyway then having more memories won't help will it. That's really helped me as I can let that go.

Whiff
What was his explanation for treating you so badly?

Sara1954 last time my son spoke to me was on my birthday in April 2020 and I had a wonderful time. He talked putting some paving down to make the garden safer. I walk with a stick and have falls. That was the last time we spoke.

4 days later he sent the email called me vindictive and manipulative filled it with a pack of lies things that never happened. Called me a racist. Said I hide things about his dad's cancer. He was 13 when we had to tell him his dad won't live 5years and 16when he died. My husband didn't want either of our children to know how he felt or how much pain he was in. We did what all loving parents do that's protect our children. He said he didn't like me but he ended with the biggest lie of all that he loved me. And to give him time.

I foolishly thought it would be ok to send his and his second son's birthday presents and cards plus presents and card for my new grandson that was due in July plus money for my eldest grandson as I always give something to siblings when a new baby is born in August.
He sent everything back all unopened the day after their birthday with a letter again calling me vindictive and manipulative and didn't want my influence near him or his family and zero contact. He didn't even put to mom or even sign it. But it was his hand writing ,spelling mistakes and punctuation errors.

So I have never had any explanation only accusations. I will never contact him. If he wants to contact me he can but he will have to face me here at my home.

Whiff
That sounds really strange, why would he go and help you if he was planning sending such a horrible email.
The way you handled your husband’s cancer, I would think is how a lot of parents would handle it, out of kindness to the children, and respect for your husband.
As for your grandchildren, that’s so sad for you, has he ever shown signs of resenting you before? Or is this out of the blue?

freedomfromthepast

"Is your Dad an enabler? Because someone always has to enable this for the behaviour to be able to continue."

Yes he is. Plus he has an air of his own toxicity. I remember my first day in my new career when I was in my early 20's. I was hired on the same place he worked (my mom worked there too). He stopped me going to my first shift and instead of telling me to have a good day he told me that he worked hard to build a reputation there and I better not mess it up. He then would come to work each day and work the area I was working that day in order to try and catch me messing up. Sadly it was my mother who he should have been worried about. She stole money (Govt job) and almost got him fired. The only reason they didn't press charges on her is because he had a long career there and she was made to cash out her retirement account to pay it back.

For the most part, he stood back and allowed her abuse and didn't give a whit. As long as someone was cooking and cleaning up after him (always me) he was fine.

I have only 1 single memory from before age 4. The dentist. It was traumatic. I though ti was normal for most kids to not have many memories from childhood. I dont want to try and recover them. Like Smileless said, the brain is a complex thing and it has repressed those for a reason.

Hi, I'm sorry to even ask you that. I had typed it before I could even stop myself. You see, one of my parents is an enabler, so years later when they told me about what they other parent tried to do to me , all I could think of was the years of secrecy and gaslighting.

I'm so sorry. It just seems like the enablers are so weak and they don't stand up for us at all. Probably they only spill the beans in the end to act the victim. But they are not the victim. They as parents were responsible to protect, nurture and cherish us. Now we must love ourselves by doing what's best for ourselves. Hugs!

I don't want to recover my early memories either. They are repressed for a reason.

It was out of the blue. Once I moved here he came every week with my 2 grandson's had lunch and was usually here 4hrs. He did a few little DIY things. I moved here 2yrs this month. Last time I saw my daughter in law was boxing day 2019.

He told me February last year they where expecting again. He used to say how excited the boys got when they realised they where coming here. Last time I saw them was March last year because of Covid but still had texts,phone call, photos and videos of the boys. Got a lovely video of an Easter egg hunt they did for the boys in the garden. Last photo was 17th April. Then he came for my birthday. And the rest as above.

Before that they visited as often as they could and I came up here. I used to live 100+ miles away. After my husband died I had both my parents and mother in law to look after. Mom was the last to die in 2017.

Both my children where brought up the same. My daughter also had an email. He has nothing to with our side of the family. My brother thinks my daughter in law is jealous that my grandson loved being here and how close I was with my son.

Luckily my daughter and son in law said they will never lose them. And tell me how much they love me and my grandson's adore me. My daughter and daughter in law never got on.

I was so happy when he met his future wife a year after his dad died. He was my happy boy again. I was so glad she made him happy and grew to love her. They have been together 17 years married 6 this year.

So sorry to hear how your son was so nasty, Whiff. If it's any help at all his behaviour does sound like projection. I mean, him calling you vindictive and nasty when he was being vindictive and nasty!
If you google "Psychological projection" you might agree?

I'm pretty sure this is how my son acts as well. He even called me a narcissist and I'm pretty sure I'm not one even though I probably have traits seeing as my parents seem to have it.

Don't worry onward, I am very open about it. Resentful at times, but for the most part I have made peace with my childhood.

I know this sounds horrible of me, but they are both reaping what they have sown. My mothers with no one and my dad dependent on my mother. Since the kids are gone, she has turned her toxicity on to him. He is living what I lived with my while life. A tiny part of me thinks, finally getting what they deserve. I am not proud of that part of me, but it is a human trait I suppose.

They have created what they have and I can not and am not responsible for saving them. I tried for years to make them into something they aren't, or make myself into whatever they would love. When I cut her off from my kids, it was not a manipulation or a punishment. It was a finality that was a result of their decisions and behaviors.

The whole scenario, as is all estrangement, is just sad.

As kids we love our parents no matter what but when they fail to protect us or even abuse us, I think there's something inside that thinks " I deserved it" It can take years (and much therapy) to learn, no you didn't deserve it. Also, its not even about you. It was never about you. Its about them (and their problems)

You were a loveable child. They had issues that made them unable to protect, nurture, guide and love. I find it freeing to realize that children are sweet, innocent and loveable. Anyone who doesn't treat a child right is the problem

I can understand you walking away. We all have our limits. I have distance on my side, which allows me to be LC. You're not horrible (though you may have been told you are- I was) Looking after yourself means different things to different people and you have to do what you have to do. It may be when you heal and get strategies to stick up for yourself that you feel more able to be in contact with them. Only time will tell.

OnwardandUpward
You are right, we love our parents no matter what, we crave their love and if it’s withheld we automatically think it’s our fault.
I spent so many years trying to make her love me, well into my thirties before I saw things as they really were, and in my forties when I eventually had enough.
My regret really is that I didn’t do it twenty years before, because of my guilt, and shame I always went out of my way to try and redeem myself, sometimes putting them before my ever patient husband, and making changes to our plans to make it better for them.
What on earth was I trying to prove?
Even then, there was absolutely no relationship between us.

Welcome to this estrangement forum Lanoylanoy. It's such a relief isn't it to know that others are facing the same heartache and confusion and that you're not the only one.

I hope you'll find sharing with us here and seeing how we manage to somehow get on with our lives will enable you to do the same.

I've often pondered about whether being estranged out of the blue as you were Whiff and we were too is harder than it coming over a period of time. Is that sudden death of the relationship more difficult to come to terms with then witnessing the slow death of the relationship, perhaps seeing it coming and knowing there's nothing you an do about it. I still don't know.

I agree Sara Whiff's son's behaviour is indeed strange, as was our ES's. The last time we saw him was when he came to pick up our 8 month old GS who'd spent a couple of hours with us.

We were going on holiday for 3 weeks. He said he hoped we'd have a good time and a safe journey. 3 days after we returned it was his birthday so I did what I'd always done and 'phoned him. There was a recorded message saying 'the person you are calling is no longer accepting calls from this number'.

It's good to have estranging adult children sharing their experiences and feelings on this subject as there are many similarities, even though our experiences appear on the surface to be very different.

As parents, we love our children no matter what and when they estrange us it's an automatic reaction to think it's our fault rather than theirs. For EP's and EAC how much easier it would be if we could turn that love off, so we no longer hope for something that can never be.

Sara, I was always a people pleaser. If I tried to do anything at all for myself they would have a go at me calling me selfish etc. I have only realised since having therapy and going LC that it's not at all selfish to do self care or even enjoy yourself sometimes! I've also put them before my husband, in the past. They know something has changed and the old me has gone, but they don't bring it up and nor do I. The dynamic has changed because I get more distant if they are abusive and that doesn't serve lonely people well. I'm glad for you and your husband that you have each other.

Yes it's true, we do love them no matter what Smileless. I did know deep down it wasn't my fault because I don't see what else I could have done (he was trying to control my health choices) It was not me who threatened or withdrew love or blocked them- they did that and all because I didn't do what they tried to tell me. They also used the GC as a weapon and I hate it when people use kids as a weapon. It never ends well for anyone. It's deeply unfair on the kids as well as the adults. Your son sounds like a coward Smileless but there could be another possibility? (What if your DiL blocked your number so it looked as if you didn't wish your son a Happy Birthday?) It's definitely a possibility that she was behind it all and he believed whatever she said. Some people are very divisive, sadly.

Big hugs to all

I don't know whether it would have been worse seeing the estrangement coming with my son or it happening out of the blue like it did.

The only comparison I have is we knew from my husband's diagnosis of cancer he wouldn't live 5 years. It was like living with the sword of Damocles hanging over us. When it dropped and we were told it was terminal and he would receive palliative care it was an awful shock. I remember screaming and running from the room and sobbing in the arms of the nurse before I could go back to my husband and the consultant .

He was in hospital for a week end of January . He had his last birthday in hospital and told he had 5 weeks to live. He came home the next day and died 2 days later. We knew when he was home we only had days not weeks.

It was a shock the estrangement coming out of the blue with my son but thinking about for me as hard has it been I am glad it happened that way . It would have been so much harder for me watching the relationship die as I watched my husband die.

Watching a relationship die, I think sometimes people don't realise it is dying, they only know there is a problem. They struggle through different strategies, sometimes find they can't use their usual way of dealing with problems, like talking things through because the other party won't engage. Then they make choices about how they respond, especially if grandchildren are involved. And then they hit their "red line" and wait with baited breath to see what will happen.

Just hard really for everyone in this estrangement maelstrom!

I too am just waiting for the axe to fall.

I can see estrangement with my DS on the horizon. I'm afraid it's a classic case of a narcissistic DIL doing her utmost to destroy the family.

Yesterday was truly dreadful and I am not sure how much more I can take. For two pins I would just walk away but like so many of us I am trying to keep things going for the sake of my son and the grandchildren.

I can't help but feel it's a futile exercise and that's its only a question of time. Reading this thread and a few other websites has helped though and I feel prepared for the worst.

Like Whiff I too am a widow, living in my own, so an estrangement would hit me hard. But like Whiff I too feel that my heart was broken when my husband died, and that whilst an estrangement with my son would cause me great pain and anguish, my heart would not break again, rather it would bend.

I feel desperately sorry for my son but I can't help him until the scales fall from his eyes and he sees her in her true colours. My second son soon saw through her and she hates him for this. She can't bear that she can't control him or manipulate him so she is deliberately trying to break up two brothers who have always been close.

She is doing her utmost to destroy us.

What she doesn't realise is that my father was a narcissist too, so I am well versed in their tactics. I learned long ago narcissists have no self awareness and they will never change, they are sociopaths who cannot amend their behaviour. It's not their fault but the fact remains they cause havoc and leave nothing but a trail of devastation in their wake.

OnwardandUpward
So much of what you say resonates with me. I too withdrew from my parents, from the girl who fell over herself trying to please, to the girl who hardly said a word. Like yours, they either didn’t notice, or decided not to mention it, I don’t know which.
If I’m angry, I’m angry with myself, I shouldn’t have let it drag on for so long, when I look back, at how hard I tried, and got nothing back, it makes me feel that I would have been much better off just walking away years before.
Whiff and Derbyshirelass, how sad for you, I’m interested in what your grandchildren have been told, are your sons intending to airbrush you out of their lives? Or will they rewrite history to make you the bad guy?

Sara1954 In my son's email and letter he has painted the worst mother to ever walk the earth and already rewrote history. Things he put in those things that never happened. And what my daughter in law wrote on Reddit was truly awful. My grandson's with them the oldest will be 5 in October, his brother 3 next week and the baby must be 1 now.

They probably don't remember me. Last time I saw the 2 oldest was March last year and never seen the baby . Don't even know his name or date of birth.

But no matter what they tell them about me. As they grow they will think for themselves. And it will be up to them if they want to find me.

My only hope is my son doesn't say awful things about his dad. I can't forgive him for what his said about me , but if he blackens his father's name them I will wash my hands of him.

But I will just have to wait and see what happens in years to come .

My son and I aren't estranged ....yet. I think he is trying just as hard as I am to keep things on an even keel. However, I do feel there is a very strong possibility that estrangement will happen at some point. I know that this is my DILs end game. She wants to cut him off from his friends and family so she can have total control.

I am just waiting for that axe to fall.......I'm pretty convinced it will happen and probably fairly soon.

In the meantime we do all we can to keep channels open, but I've seen many of his friends give up and walk away. Not sure how much longer we can limp along like this. There have to limits after all.

I will stand my ground against her because I refuse to be cowed by a bully. I will not allow her to manipulate me or use my son and grandchildren as leverage to bend me to her will, nor will I will allow myself to be a victim of emotional blackmail.

She has twice tried to use emotional blackmail threatening to cut me off. The first time I called her bluff and she backed down, the second time, just yesterday in fact, I ignored her threats and pretended I hadn't heard.

Not quite sure when she will try again but I have no doubt she will and I feel sure it will be soon. I am prepared.

I am happy to walk away from her, she's toxic. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I never saw her or spoke to her again. If it weren't for my son I would have walked years ago.

But, as I said, there are limits as to what I will put up with. I will not allow myself to become her creature. It would be extremely painful if I were to be estranged from my son and grandchildren but that might be a price I have to pay. I will not let her break me. I would rather just cut my losses.

I have experience, too much experience, of living with a narcissist. My father was a nark and I learned that there is no winners, only losers. Narks never give up until they either get complete control or destroy you. The only way a victim can protect themselves is by walking away.

I am only sticking around and allowing her to remain in my life so as to try and protect my son and grandchildren. The children are just babies. I am all my son and grandchildren have left, she has pushed everyone else away and I feel it's my duty to do what I can to help them.

I will not make my son piggy in the middle though, I refuse to make his life even more difficult. I would walk today but I know he loves me and still wants me in his life so I stay......for now.

It's a struggle at times because I cannot bear the way she humiliates and embarrasses him. I just wish he would open his eyes and realise he's on a hiding to nothing, I hate to see him him so cowed and emasculated. But he knows as well as I do that she will use the children as leverage.

When the time comes and the axe falls, I will simply accept the inevitable and bow out gracefully and hope that both my son and the grandchildren will try to keep up some limited form of contact. But I won't force the issue, if my absence makes their lives easier then I won't try to fight estrangement.

I know in my heart and soul that I have done my level best and that will have to suffice.

Derbyshirelass
I really admire that you have not resorted to playing her at her own game, she sounds odious, if you son sees her using the children as a weapon against him, he is probably scared to death of pushing her too far.
Maybe you could talk to your son privately, and say you’re prepared to take a step back for the sake of harmony, but you are always there if needed.
I hope you can make things work, but I think you are absolutely right not to let her bully you.

Thanks Sara. Good advice.

And you are right about him being wary of pushing against her because as you say she won't be above using the children as weapons.

I have already stepped back. I have learned never to initiate contact. I let her take the initiative and set the agenda. I realise it's merely enabling her and allowing her to get away with murder but I do it in the name of peace and harmony.

I see no point in aggravating her or rocking the boat. It would only fuel her narcissistic rage and my son would suffer.

I only visited yesterday at his request. He asked, I went. I won't post the reason on a public forum. She definitely didn't want me there - she told me so in a text rant later in the evening when I got home.

However, she couldn't refuse his request without looking bad in his eyes so she reluctantly acquiesced and then proceeded to spoil the visit by humiliating my son by the way she spoke to him in front of me. I could see how embarrassed he was but of course I said nothing and had to pretend I hadn't noticed his discomfort.

This is what it has come down to so you can see why I think she's gearing up to making her next move.

Like all narks she is sly and devious. He knows nothing about the abusive phone calls I receive from her, nor the texts where she rants and raves. She makes out to everyone, my son included, that's she's all sweetness and light to me, but in secret she continues to harass me, gaslighting and trying to bamboozle me. Classic nark behaviour. I'm the last obstacle to get rid of and then she will have total dominion.

I've just had a lovely text from my son.....I know he loves me and wants me in his life.

It's just very very difficult.

I would love to walk away but I won't, not whilst my son still wants me. I will just try to keep things jogging along whilst maintaining my dignity and integrity.

I have just written everything up in my journal. It's all there then for when I need to refer to it. I know it sounds a bit anal but it helps me try and make sense of what's happening. Keeping a record stops me from questioning my sanity when she gaslights me because I have a record of what was said and done. It's also a written testimony to all that has happened. One day I may need this as evidence.

I haven't slept very well and I'm now exhausted and drained after yesterday's shenanigans. I need peace and rest now to recover,

I wasn't sure how to deal with her last vicious text from last night. I was tempted to ignore it but then it occurred to me that that would only enrage her even more and she would then accuse me of being cruel and callous and not caring about her feelings.

So, after much careful deliberation, this morning I sent her what I hope was a considered, measured, proportionate and kind response, using words that could not be deliberately misconstrued or saying anything which could be twisted and used as ammunition against me. Talk about walking a tightrope. I am so tired of treading on eggshells, it's exhausting.

I have a splitting headache, no appetite and feel dreadfully queasy. I m now going to try and eat something and then rest, settle down with a nice film to try and lift my spirits.

I do find it takes quite a while to regain my equilibrium after one of her "episodes". My stomach gets churned up in knots and I can end up feeling quite ill.

As I mentioned I too am a widow, just coming up to the 7th anniversary of his death. I know it's 7 years now but I still find anniversaries and other special days somewhat of a trial. I need all my strength to get through the next few days, without having to contend with my DILs antics.

All I want is a quiet life without friction, stress and drama. Surely it's not too much to ask for......

Thanks for listening...........

I am sorry if I have bored you all to death. I didn't mean to monopolise the thread but I just needed to get it off my chest.

Derbyshirelass
It seems you are doing everything right, and with a very clear head.
I think your son would be very worried about you, if he realised the extent of his wife’s cruelty, and the terrible effect it’s having on you,
I think you need to step back from it, she is going to make you ill, maybe that’s her intention.
Why in the world are people so cruel to each other?

DerbyshireLass I have been widowed 17.5 years. For the first 13th anniversaries of my husband death . The run up to it I relived every day of it. I kept it from my children as on the day I was a sodden mess . By accident on the 14 th anniversary was the usual sodden mess and usually our children texted me. But my daughter phoned and it all came out . Both my son and daughter told me I should have told them how bad I got . But I told them I was protecting them they asked from who I said me. My daughter understood but my son didn't. They where still grieving for their dad.

I made sure I was never like that again. I felt I was letting them, my husband and myself down.

It's funny but I was always ok with his birthday, wedding anniversary and Christmas which was his favourite holiday.

May would have been our 40th wedding anniversary I was ok . I wanted to look at our wedding album but couldn't on the day. But did a week later. It made me realise just how many people where at our wedding that are also dead. But it brought back many happy memories of the day.

Grief in my experience doesn't get any less you just cope better. But at times a tidal wave of grief over whelms me. Like it did earlier today.

My son not wanting me is like a living grief . I grieve for the son I had and my 3 grandson's. The son who sent me that email and letter isn't the son I know. But I can't turn off the love I have for him and my grandson's.

But I will never contact him. He wants zero contact he's got it. If he wants me back in their lives he will have to come here and face me. But not holding my breath.

DerbyshireLass as you will already have noticed I ramble on.

The thread below this one started by Smiless2012 I also ramble on. It was her help via PMs that I was able to post openly. Posters there and here have helped me come to terms with estrangement. I didn't even know it was called that.

So you ramble on as much as you want and don't think you are boring anyone. ?

Thank you Sara for your kind words and encouragement.

I've no idea what makes people so cruel..........maybe it's because they are damaged and hurting themselves. Maybe they just don't know any better.

I answered her nasty text with politeness and kindness but I doubt it will be appreciated. It won't be what she wants, she wants and thrives on drama but I won't engage.

I have sussed her out. I have her pegged and she doesn't like it one bit. . I know her modus operandi, I know how to respond. I won't play her games, or feed her ego and that's why she gets so angry with me. She's relentless but what she doesn't realise is I had decades learning how to protect myself from my fathers cruelty. He was a consummate narcissist, a very unpleasant man but I learned how to shield myself.

I learned to respond to my father with amused indifference, tried that with DIL and it doesn't work. I think blanket bombing with kindness works best with my DIL. It takes the wind out of her sails and robs her of ammunition.

Narcissists are clever arent they, or at least they think they are. they look for our weaknesses and any chink in our armour and then go for the jugular. But they are also quite transparent, so it's easy to spot their drivers, their motivation and what makes them tick.

But you are so right with your advice I AM going to step even further back now. I will put this last couple of days behind me and get on with my life. I am going to play my cards very close to my chest and keep her at arms length.

I am not going to go into a downward spiral and wallow in a misery fest I am going to pick myself up and dust myself down.

I have decided that next week I will indulge in a bit of retail
therapy, treat myself in honour my husband. I am going to join a slimming club. I am not hugely overweight, but could do with shifting a stone and half. And I might meet some nice people there.

There are couple of minor medical things on my to do list so I am just going to crack on with those. I am going to put myself first now. I will still be there for my son but I'm not going to put my life on hold, waiting for the next crisis.

Time to put it to bed now. Let her do her worst. I'm prepared.

I've just managed a late lunch/early dinner, just fish so nice and light and easy. First thing I've eaten since yesterday afternoon. Feel better now for having eaten something,

Going to make a cup of coffee and snuggle up on the sofa with a film.

Put it all out of my mind. Tomorrow is a new day.

I am determined to live the best life I can. If my son and the grandchildren can be part of my life well that would be fantastic, if not well it's a great shame but I'm not going to let it stop me having a rich and rewarding life and I'm not going to let Madam spoil my future. I have spent 5 years trying to form a good relationship with her. No more, I'm done.

I won't estrange her, I shall always be pleasant and polite, but I'm not going to fret if she decides to estrange me. I lived perfectly well for 65 years before she came into my life. I can live perfectly well without her.