Just to see the children

VS you are right there are vulnerable grand-parents here I should know I am one of them. I have already had my first meeting in regard of the courts and nothing would be more stressful to me than not putting up any sort of a fight to see my GC. Is my money any use sitting in the bank and staying there until I die when I can use it to pave the way to having the benefit of having my GC in my life.

Seeing the GC is always going to be better if there is a good relationship with the parent, as many G.Ps know that is not always the case.

Estrangement can happen without the reason being explained...despite request for explanation.

Even if there is not abuse. Competent parents should get final say.

Same as Pp. I decided long ago if MIL went or court she wasn't going to have the children. Regardless of outcome.
That's how I found out about the case law.

You are wrong Bibbity to some extent because if Childrens services are involved with the parent then it puts a different slant on things particularly if the childrens' services have got an order on the children. It is 50/50 about who makes decisions about the children. It is not the right of the childrens' services
to say whether or not a GP can have access rights that is still up to the court and proof of the GP having a good moral record and without any serious convictions then they stand a good chance within in the courts.

So many people desperate to see their GCs and assuring us that they have done nothing wrong. Are they being completely honest? There must be a reason why the generations are estranged. Estrangement doesn't happen without a reason.

I'm not making claims VS I'm simply clarifying the law as it stands. FGS what on earth makes you think that an EGP, vulnerable or otherwise would "put themselves through a stressful expensive court process" based on what I have posted here. If it wasn't so ridiculous it would be laughable.

Solicitors advise their clients on such matters. Advise whether or not they think they have any chance of success, point out the potential pit falls and ask them to think carefully before they make their final decision.

We're all aware "that the best way to see the grandchildren is to find a way to keep things positive with their parents" but as we all know, that isn't always possible is it.

Smileless you shouldn't make such claims. There are vulnerable grandparents here who could easily put themselves through a stressful expensive court process only to find that there will never be a relationship between them and the grandchildren.

Instead we must acknowledge that the best way to see the grandchildren is to find a way to keep things positive with their parents.

It's no good shouting at me Bibbity, it's the law and I am not responsible for the law.

It could be rare to hear of grandparents hurting their grandchildren because the parents have stopped contact with them.

Smileless2012

The courts have the higher authority Summerlove just as they do when parents who split up and there are arguments about who the children will reside with, when one parent is being denied access by the other etc.

It has nothing to do with the fitness of the parents Bibbity this about whether or not it's in the best interests of the children to continue their relationship with their GP's.

No DiamondLily in the context of this discussion, children don't have some rights, they're the only ones with rights in accordance with the law.

If you feel that "the importance of grand parents is being overstated here" AmberSpyglass then it's the law you have an issue with. "No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives"; the law says otherwise.

Of course it's about fit parents. If a parent is fit then they are capable of deciding what is best for THEIR children.

This isn't about abuse is it. Why is it impossible to have a discussion about EGP's seeing their GC without abuse being brought into it?

The fact that you are having to quote incidents from Puerto Rico (cruise ship incident) and US shows how rare it is.

Sweep I don't think you are correct there. Besides, who is going to enforce those rights? Parents aren't going to and grandparents can't just come and take away the children for whatever time they deem appropriate.

If the parents do not agree to grandparents seeing the children the grandparents still ha e to go to court. They just have more right to do so, that doesn't mean those rights will be granted against the parents wishes in all cases.

Abusive parents don't magically become not abusive when the grandchildren turn up.

We can't acknowledge abusive parents exist without acknowledging abusive grandparents do too.

Even in cases where parents were abusive or neglectful to their children, but they have done the work to recover, we shouldn't expect parents who have been traumatised and let down by them to hand over their children.

Allsorts

Not all parents are good, look how many children have been injured at the hands of natural parents, some even dying.,they are thank goodness a small minority as are manipulative grandparents. There is nothing to suggest Heartwrench was not a loving grandparent, she helped her d and sil get out of debt reducing funds for her old age and was very much part of their lives., She was fine then as she was useful. Court could look at the circumstances, but it is definitely not a route I would take unless the children were in danger or neglected.

No grandparents in these countries have an automatic right to see their grandchildren and do not have to go to court.

Sweep

Plenty of grandparents have harmed their gc, on purpose or by accident.

The grandfather and the cruise incident
Tbe grandmother in the US who killed the gc as she didnt want to return the child to the mother (who was divorced from the father)

A reddit of a gm that didnt believe the gc had a coconut allergy and the gc passed away due to her negligence

Amberspyglas I would say to you that you have got that wrong. The father of my grand-children who is in prison has had his rights to his children suspended not because he done any physical abuse but because he was a drug dealer. So at least childrens services got that bit right and he cannot even see the children when he is released unless he jumps through a million hoops first.
Also you state that the importance of grand-parents is being
massively overstated here ; I will tell you once only that I will fight till I have no breath in my body to keep any one away from my grand-children that does not have their best interests at heart even their father. He should have been thinking about his children before he went drug dealing.

I keep reading how things must remain as they are to ensure a grandchild’s safety. Does that mean all children should be removed from their parents to ensure the child’s safety as the incidents of parents harming their children are well known.
I have never heard of grandparents harming their grandchildren.

The courts have the higher authority Summerlove just as they do when parents who split up and there are arguments about who the children will reside with, when one parent is being denied access by the other etc.

It has nothing to do with the fitness of the parents Bibbity this about whether or not it's in the best interests of the children to continue their relationship with their GP's.

No DiamondLily in the context of this discussion, children don't have some rights, they're the only ones with rights in accordance with the law.

If you feel that "the importance of grand parents is being overstated here" AmberSpyglass then it's the law you have an issue with. "No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives"; the law says otherwise.

Not all parents are good, look how many children have been injured at the hands of natural parents, some even dying.,they are thank goodness a small minority as are manipulative grandparents. There is nothing to suggest Heartwrench was not a loving grandparent, she helped her d and sil get out of debt reducing funds for her old age and was very much part of their lives., She was fine then as she was useful. Court could look at the circumstances, but it is definitely not a route I would take unless the children were in danger or neglected.

In my case implementing third party visitation rights is not vastly complicated and would not cause damage on the core family time that the parental person in charge of the children
would have difficulties with.

In my case there are no other grand-parents involved with the children as the two older ones "but still under nine" are the ones with the father in prison and his parents have never bothered with the children and do not want to know. Then there is the youngest child and there is no indication who his father is let alone any grand-parents involved.
So I am the only GP they have known.

It does not only have to be weekend either as my grand-children love to look and read books any books will do. They do not want to be left to the joys of a tablet to occupy themselves they like to be read to, at times their parent is too tired to do that and they like to sit with me "GP" who will be only to happy to do it.

If the only way a grand-parent can get that relationship back on track and keep seeing them children then it certainly is in the interests of the child.

As for step -grand-parents I cannot comment but if they had spent time raising the child then I do not see why they should then be cut off.

I can only comment that if grand-children have had grand-parent involvement for several years and have thrived with having that in place then it is can only be considered as detrimental if the one with parental rights suddenly announces they are breaking that contact. To hurt the child by doing that is not best parenting and looking at the best outcome for the child.

Sweep123

All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries.
I’m sure the EU would have given this great consideration before bringing it about. Then grandchildren could not be used as a tool in some vendetta against grandparents.

I think they still have to go through the court system of their home country Sweep, so courts are still in the equation

All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries.
I’m sure the EU would have given this great consideration before bringing it about. Then grandchildren could not be used as a tool in some vendetta against grandparents.

But these are not your children! No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives. I think the importance of grandparents is being massively overstated here.

Part of the issue is also the reality of how implementing third party visitation would work, the impact on the child and core family unit.

Two sets of grandparents. Each gets a weekend of visitation. That’s going to have a negative impact on the core family, as many families have only the weekends to do activities together, since most spend weeknights on a track race to get kids fed, homework done, etc before bed.

Then holidays and birthdays. Is it better for kids to miss that time with their parents, so grandparents can have it?

Then there’s the reality of divorced and blended families. Add in additional sets of grandparents, parents already having decreased time with their children due to co-parenting arrangements… how many pieces can we cut a child into? What happens if the child has extra curriculars, and doesn’t want to go somewhere on a weekend? Or a blended family, part of the siblings go to visitation, and shuffled around, and the others stay home, how doesn’t that negatively impact the sibling relationship?

I simply don’t see how court ordered visitation with third parties truly works in the best interest of the child, overall.

And if grandparents are granted visitation, then stepparents who were actively helping raise the child ought to be eligible too. So add in another round of visitation. And also the step grandparents. Where does it logically end?

I don’t see how kids having less time with their core family and diminishing those relationships is healthy.