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Estrangement

I'm not playing.

(130 Posts)
VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 10:57:42

I have been estranged several years from my mum now and recently my brother reached out again after 3 years with no contact. I am assuming they have finally been able to travel to visit and are putting pressure on him. Of course he said all the wrong things.

His position is that my estranging is worse than anything that led up to it. While he is of that mindset, things could never change. Also of note is the fact that, those things are what caused the estrangement, one could not happen without the other.

He mentions differing perceptions, that's a valid point. That doesn't however invalidate my hurt and upset and that I needed certain behaviours to stop. It doesn't actually mean that my perceptions are wrong. Just because they feel comfortable with how I was treated, doesn't mean I should.

He said the ball is in my court. This is not a game but let's pretend for a moment that it was, I'm not playing, I have left the court. The rules were unclear, it was 1 against 3 and they never equipped me with a racquet.

He says that I have used my children as weapons. Again, my children have witnessed things for themselves. They are involved and approving of my decision. Also, my children aren't weapons. They aren't pieces to be moved as part of a game. Why are they being referred to as such? My children and their emotional health is my responsibility. They aren't mediators, they don't belong in the middle. The way to have a good relationship with my children was to have a good relationship with me, both in front of my children and when they were not around.

He said they are always willing to fix this. That should have happened years ago when I explained how I felt and what was hurting me. I offered joint counselling, I explained why I couldn't carry on as things were politely and gently. I came to it from a place of love and wanting a good relationship.

He told me that while I remain cut off from family, I cannot grow emotionally. Oh no, the opposite is true. Completely. The evidence exists in every aspect of my life. My growth was stunted by people who treated me like I was worthless, an embarrassment, not good enough, too many children, don't own my house, didn't finish my education, the list goes on and on. Of course they have no way of knowing I did in fact finish my education since estrangement.

He said that I had surrounded myself with people willing to agree with me unconditionally. Again, not true. I do not exist in an echo chamber and if that is what I wanted, I would never be posting here, in a place where estrangement has many facets. I've never held myself up as perfect. I've struggled with my mental and physical health. I've needed support that hasn't always been easy to hear but that's possible to do when it comes from a kind place of understanding and care.

He said some really awful things to me when I first estranged and again he justified them all, I made him angry, he said things because he was angry and that was my fault so he has no need to apologise. I don't agree, we are all always responsible for our own behaviour. Just because anger exists doesn't mean it is OK to cut someone, physically or verbally.

He told me all about how I will eventually regret this. Why? Why on earth would I? If regret were to appear it would be there from the start. The only thing that comes and goes is guilt and hurt. Hurt that I couldn't have a family who loved me but cares deeply that it appears to others that they do. Guilt because of all the things I no longer do or will not do in future for aging family members because we do not have a relationship. Unchangeable, circumstantial emotions that sometimes have to be carried and sometimes get put down.

I still know what it would have taken for me to end estrangement. It's quite simple. Accountability, empathy for how I felt and change. Of course that's impossible because my mum is an abusive narcissist and follows the abuse patterns of a covert narcissist to the letter. Baring in mind, her narcissism is diagnosed in her absence by a therapist due to the symptoms I exhibited. The same way we know Chicken Pox by our bodies very specific immune response.

It is just too late for my brother too now though. I've grieved and moved on from the relationship the same way I would any ended relationship. I don't have feelings for him any more. I knew that the moment he sent me an email picking me apart and demeaning me on every level because I didn't cry, I just dealt with it as I would any stranger on the Internet telling me all the old tropes estranged children of abusive parents are far too used to hearing. Even if he said the right things now, there is no trust, it's gone. I'm just not playing.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 22:16:35

Shelbel that's awful, I too have nightmares. Dreams don't let you forget

Allsorts Sat 02-Oct-21 07:52:17

I had a close relationship with my two gc, for a few years, we took them away, for days out, so they knew me and Dh well. So they will remember me. It’s been quite a journey accepting what is and not what it was,

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 08:15:11

Allsorts
Unless a child is horribly abused, which of course there can never be an excuse for, there is generally a bit of fault on both sides.
I don’t like my mother, she is a cold, unkind woman, I could go on but I’m sure you get the picture.
But this seems to be mainly aimed at me, she’s a decent grandmother, she treats my sister in law fairly well as far as I know, she dotes on my brothers children
She was a truly awful mother in many ways, I agree with Violet, you can’t ever really get passed it, because it shapes your view of yourself.
So I just choose to never have contact with her again, I don’t want any attempt at reconciliation, and to be honest, I don’t think she does either.

Hetty58 Sat 02-Oct-21 08:23:35

There are things that simply can't be put right - ever - and those we struggle to come to terms with or put to rest. Contact just stirs them up again.

Siblings can have dramatically different views and recollections, along with a conviction that you're exaggerating, you've got it all wrong or must have dreamt it.

They're in denial, of course (or (unlikely) were lucky enough to never be picked on - or even notice your suffering).

My sister lives in cloud cuckoo land with rose tinted glasses, where everything and everyone is wonderful - yet my brother remembers things all too well, especially my efforts to protect him.

A real turning point, for me, was the realisation that my parents were both ill, in different ways. My father, deeply traumatised by wartime experiences, my mother by her own childhood. Both acting 'normal' to the outside world. Viewing somebody as ill, rather than evil, helps a lot.

They are long gone, now, and life is peaceful, safe, content.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 09:29:06

You're right Shelbel, all the things you mentioned are a result of trauma. When Mr. S. told me our ES had emailed me last year, I felt physically sick and had to get him to read it to make sure it wasn't anything unpleasant.

When I dream about our ES he's always a lot younger, the lovely young man he was and not the person he's become.

You made memories with your GC Allsorts and they cannot be obliterated. Our ES and his brother talk and laugh together about their past and the things we did as a family.

He has those memories so despite what he's done and whatever 'reasons' he's given for estranging us, he knows the truth. His memories wont allow him to forget.

Hetty "Viewing somebody as ill, rather than evil, helps a lot"flowers.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 10:24:47

Hetty
It’s only been in recent years that I realise mental illness must have played a part in my mothers behaviour.
She had had a very traumatic experience before I was born, and I think that possibly, that made her unable to bond with me.
As a little girl my dad was very hands on, I clearly remember we would be out and about most of the weekends, long walks, doing the shopping, visiting his friends and their families, and during the week, I would mostly be at my grans, that’s my memory of it anyway.
It doesn’t make me like her, but it does help me understand her.

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 12:20:21

It's sad but I don't think my children have many good memories at all, we went out on a day trip maybe once a year which she would inevitably try and start an argument on. My children were expected to behave perfectly at all times at her house and most visits, they were made to stay in the garden. She just wasn't really interested in them, never came to birthdays, school events or sports, wouldn't help out if I needed hospital visits. Only liked the eldest who can't stand her. Nothing really

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 13:02:05

Very sad for both of you Sara, for your mum who maybe was unable to bond with you because of a previous trauma, and for you never having had the relationship with her you should have.

3nanny6 Sat 02-Oct-21 13:21:23

Smileless : Your post 1st October 17. 45 You quoted what I said about the root cause and for my D with my GC she has never been able to tell me the reasons for why she did not want me to see the GC. Her sister just like Violetskys brother has moved into her home to help out. I had a decent relationship with her sister until 5 months ago which is when the problems of the children being left in the sole care of an unfamiliar man that my daughter hardly knew came to my attention when I called at her house and he was there. I do not care who agrees with me or does not agree but young children like that must be protected and I told the social services and TBH they agreed with me it was wrong. The daughter without the children told my son that I am stupid and should mind my own business and she no longer wants anything to do with me. My feelings on that are if she would like to turn a blind eye to her sisters behaviour and leave the children to their own fate, then so be it I want nothing to do with her either.
I have read all the posts on this thread and all of them are excellent and many of them have told Violet just leave the situation as it is and have no contact and TBH that's what I think she should do.
Allsorts I have read your posts and yes it is hard when you have had the closeness of a relationship with your GC I feel the same only it seems lately I have not even known them maybe my mind just wants to close doors and shut out the pain, in other areas of my life I continue to function and even feel content I love to take my dogs out, potter in the garden window shop and look at some of the fashions wondering if I could wear those young looking clothes at over 60 years old. One thing I keep doing is shutting the door to the thoughts of the GC as if I open it too often the sadness comes over and engulfs me.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 13:24:02

Smileless
Thankyou
But a lot of people endure a lot worse.
I don’t forget, but I’ve moved on, I don’t dwell on it, mostly I never give it a thought, but of course it shapes who you are, so you’re never entirely free.

Allsorts Sat 02-Oct-21 13:34:39

3nanny6, my heart goes out to you, for at least I know my d and sil are loving parents and will do their best to ensure their children are educated and lived and cared for. You are putting your grandchikdren first, unlike their mother. I would have done the same as you, as would any conscientious and loving grandparent, but your in a lonely place with no support. I think of the quote, bad things happened when good people do nothing. You could not have lived with yourself if you hadn’t tried. I do hope that social services are keeping a close eye on them and they don’t slip through the net. We read too often what happens to children when their parents put themselves before the welfare of their own children. It is surprising how quickly children grow up and they will see things as they really are, what their friends do etc. Nothing stays quiet now, it’s all out there on social media. Please look after yourself as there is nothing more you can do except check with ss to make sure your beloved gc are safe. You acted out of love as you knew the consequences and that is very brave of you,

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 13:40:31

I remember 3nanny and that you went above and beyond for your D and your GC. It was a heartbreaking time for you, one which you handled with dignity, compassion and courageflowers.

"But a lot of people endure a lot worse" I've told myself that so many times over the years. I was abused as a child, not by my parents I hasten to add, so I know what you mean about never being entirely free.

You're right of course, the things that happen to us during our lives, good and bad, do shape us but we must always remember is that we've over come the bad. We have made our own family's and that is something to be proud of.

And I am proud, even though our youngest son estranged us and took the only GC I think we'll ever have, I am proud of the way we raised them, the way we loved them and the way we cared for them.

Nothing will ever take that away from me.

3nanny6 Sat 02-Oct-21 14:16:07

Thank-you Allsorts and I have no regrets for what I done but you are right it put me in a lonely place, I know S.S. are still involved as they took the news seriously so hope at least the children get the extra protection needed.

Thank-you also Smileless and you are correct we can still have
our pride for the way we raised them knowing that they were loved and cared for and everything required by them was always provided without giving it a second thought.

When you have loved your children when young and even as adult that love cannot be killed off. My both daughters have hacked away at family ties/bonds I just wonder what sort of job they think they have done once the GC are grown up.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 14:24:47

3nanny6
That was a very selfless decision you made, because you must have realised the damage it would do to your relationship with your daughter.
But there must be some comfort in knowing you did the right thing, and who knows what harm you may have prevented.

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 14:41:05

I have blocked him from emailing me again. If he shows up I will call the police

The sorts of guilt trips and emotional manipulations he attempted to use have not worked and while not everyone sees in his words what I do, I feel more at peace with my decision because I have made clear what I think of this type of communication with my family and they have ignored me and made no attempt to change it.

When I think over the years how quickly and easily I have changed behaviour learnt growing up when I have seen the impact it has, I know that it is not a lot to ask from my family to communicate differently.

There are a few people who have said that in order to resolve issues, both sides need to be willing to do so and the fact that there was nothing in my brothers words that suggest any kind of compromise,just blame and shame on me.

It's obvious that abusive people do not agree that their behaviour is abusive. Whether they know the truth deep down or not. However the simple truth is that it is abusive to continue saying things that someone tells you is hurting them when it wouldn't harm you in any way to stop.

So whether or not my brother or my perceptions of my mother are correct, his way of communicating with me is not worth consideration.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 14:50:20

"hacked away at family ties/bonds" that sums it up brilliantly 3nanny and very powerfully expressed. Hacking makes me think of the wanton destruction of something for the sake of it, when it could have been removed in a more controlled way.

AmberSpyglass Sat 02-Oct-21 15:02:06

Oh, violet my heart absolutely breaks for you. And honestly, I’m appalled at many of the responses here which are all about their experiences as EP and not about what was clearly an abusive relationship you suffered in.

And one that you got away from. That you’re putting steps in place to safeguard yourself and your children from ever being touched by again. I’m so sorry about what happened to you but if it means anything from a random person on the Internet, I’m so very proud that you’ve been able to take yourself out of the situation.

Calling the police if your brother or other family members contact you again is a very sensible idea - if they continue, do consider a restraining order. Things like CCTV or a Ring doorbell might come in handy, and make sure to keep a detailed log of any attempted communications.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 15:24:05

Why are you appalled AmberSpyglass?confused.

All of our experiences are important, why is it appalling that EP's are talking about theirs? EP's can and do experience abuse.

AmberSpyglass Sat 02-Oct-21 15:39:47

They’re valid and heartbreaking but they’re so clearly not relevant to what violet is posting about. How dare people - not naming anyone directly - jump in and start minimising her trauma because they’re unhappy with being cut off? Disgusting behaviour.

AmberSpyglass Sat 02-Oct-21 15:40:16

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 15:44:28

There's no derailing or gas lighting going on here AmberSpyglass and I have not seen one post that's minimising the OP's trauma. Perhaps if I've missed it, you could point it out to me.

This is no one's thread, it's a thread on the estrangement forum which anyone is entitled to post on. As for derailing, making false allegations is a sure fire way of derailing a thread which would be a pity, as there have been some helpful and heartfelt contributions made.

Namsnanny Sat 02-Oct-21 15:56:41

Why do you feel it necessary to use such strong language Anberspyglass?
Seems a bit OTT, that's all.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 16:05:26

Unless I’m missing something, I really don’t know what the problem is.

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 16:10:39

Amberspyglass my husband did tell me to put my phone down at one point because I was getting a bit upset and shaky

I thought about it though and while I don't expect estranged parents to relate their situation to mine or for anyone to see good in my family when I am an abuse survivor, there are some things I guess that don't stand out to others as abusive behaviour and the bigger picture gets lost.

I realise that's not about me though and others just have their own problems to work through and they may not realise they are being unkind to me as part of that process.

Anyway, thank you for making me feel seen in that

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 16:44:45

This is ridiculous. I don't see anyone being unkind to anyone on this thread. No one has said 'I don't believe you', 'you're making a fuss about nothing', 'you must have done something wrong'. Those are examples of meanness and invalidation.

Whether you're the one who has estranged or been estranged, there are many similarities in the emotional trauma that's experienced. It serves no one to pit one 'side' against the other. All that does is cause upset and derail the discussion.

It's happened before on GN and would be a great pity if it were to happen again.