Gransnet forums

Estrangement

I'm not playing.

(130 Posts)
VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 10:57:42

I have been estranged several years from my mum now and recently my brother reached out again after 3 years with no contact. I am assuming they have finally been able to travel to visit and are putting pressure on him. Of course he said all the wrong things.

His position is that my estranging is worse than anything that led up to it. While he is of that mindset, things could never change. Also of note is the fact that, those things are what caused the estrangement, one could not happen without the other.

He mentions differing perceptions, that's a valid point. That doesn't however invalidate my hurt and upset and that I needed certain behaviours to stop. It doesn't actually mean that my perceptions are wrong. Just because they feel comfortable with how I was treated, doesn't mean I should.

He said the ball is in my court. This is not a game but let's pretend for a moment that it was, I'm not playing, I have left the court. The rules were unclear, it was 1 against 3 and they never equipped me with a racquet.

He says that I have used my children as weapons. Again, my children have witnessed things for themselves. They are involved and approving of my decision. Also, my children aren't weapons. They aren't pieces to be moved as part of a game. Why are they being referred to as such? My children and their emotional health is my responsibility. They aren't mediators, they don't belong in the middle. The way to have a good relationship with my children was to have a good relationship with me, both in front of my children and when they were not around.

He said they are always willing to fix this. That should have happened years ago when I explained how I felt and what was hurting me. I offered joint counselling, I explained why I couldn't carry on as things were politely and gently. I came to it from a place of love and wanting a good relationship.

He told me that while I remain cut off from family, I cannot grow emotionally. Oh no, the opposite is true. Completely. The evidence exists in every aspect of my life. My growth was stunted by people who treated me like I was worthless, an embarrassment, not good enough, too many children, don't own my house, didn't finish my education, the list goes on and on. Of course they have no way of knowing I did in fact finish my education since estrangement.

He said that I had surrounded myself with people willing to agree with me unconditionally. Again, not true. I do not exist in an echo chamber and if that is what I wanted, I would never be posting here, in a place where estrangement has many facets. I've never held myself up as perfect. I've struggled with my mental and physical health. I've needed support that hasn't always been easy to hear but that's possible to do when it comes from a kind place of understanding and care.

He said some really awful things to me when I first estranged and again he justified them all, I made him angry, he said things because he was angry and that was my fault so he has no need to apologise. I don't agree, we are all always responsible for our own behaviour. Just because anger exists doesn't mean it is OK to cut someone, physically or verbally.

He told me all about how I will eventually regret this. Why? Why on earth would I? If regret were to appear it would be there from the start. The only thing that comes and goes is guilt and hurt. Hurt that I couldn't have a family who loved me but cares deeply that it appears to others that they do. Guilt because of all the things I no longer do or will not do in future for aging family members because we do not have a relationship. Unchangeable, circumstantial emotions that sometimes have to be carried and sometimes get put down.

I still know what it would have taken for me to end estrangement. It's quite simple. Accountability, empathy for how I felt and change. Of course that's impossible because my mum is an abusive narcissist and follows the abuse patterns of a covert narcissist to the letter. Baring in mind, her narcissism is diagnosed in her absence by a therapist due to the symptoms I exhibited. The same way we know Chicken Pox by our bodies very specific immune response.

It is just too late for my brother too now though. I've grieved and moved on from the relationship the same way I would any ended relationship. I don't have feelings for him any more. I knew that the moment he sent me an email picking me apart and demeaning me on every level because I didn't cry, I just dealt with it as I would any stranger on the Internet telling me all the old tropes estranged children of abusive parents are far too used to hearing. Even if he said the right things now, there is no trust, it's gone. I'm just not playing.

AmberSpyglass Sat 02-Oct-21 16:50:56

Violet You’re seen and you’re believed. What you went through was horrible and your response is more than valid.

Ignore all the nonsense about “often it’s both sides” or “how would you feel if she died” and concentrate on the important thing here - you. Your children sound supportive and like they understand and don’t want to see that side of the family anymore, so at least that’s one less thing to worry about. Plus, you know they’re good judges of character now!

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 16:57:22

Amberspyglass Thank you

I had to teach my children by estranging that they shouldn't put up with awful behaviour just because someone is related to them or says they "love" them.

AmberSpyglass Sat 02-Oct-21 17:01:39

And they’ll be so much stronger for it. It doesn’t matter who someone is, or how much they claim to care - everyone has a right to decide they don’t want abuse or toxic behaviour in their lives.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 17:10:51

Smileless
I agree, I don’t know what’s going on here,
VioletSky , surely you don’t think anyone was being anything other than supportive, people’s experiences of estrangement are all different, doesn’t mean we can’t see other people’s point of view.

Madgran77 Sat 02-Oct-21 17:57:40

Violet as I have said before when you have talked about estranging from your family, it is clear from previous details you have given, that you are absolutely right to do so. To block your brother from communicating with you is also valid in these circumstances although I am sure it has caused much stress and upset facing it again and bringing bad memories to the fore, quite understandably.

I can't see where anyone has been "unkind" to you in responding on this thread, even though they are working through their own issues and perspectives. I don't think anyone has suggested that their perspective or experience in anyway invalidates yours unless I have missed that, including nuances?

I am wondering what you are referring to when you say that people may not realise they are being unkind to you as they work through their own issues? One of the strengths of providing support on these estrangement threads seems to me to be the fact that anyone estranged can provide support from their own perspective to others from a different perspective. I have seen you do that recently to an EP, just as I have seen EPs have provided valid support for EACs.

I hope that having made your decision re your brother can you begin to move on again from this difficult episode.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 18:04:47

As you say Madgran it's been said numerous times on this thread and previously when the OP was on GN under a different name.

I have never seen an EAC who has estranged their abuser be given anything other than support whether it's from other EAC or EP's, as it should be.

As I posted earlier, it would be a shame to see a repeat of the unpleasantness we had on GN last year.

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 18:09:57

Bare with me, and I haven't had much time to put my thoughts in order but I'd appreciate if time were taken to listen and understand instead of argue because people don't agree as it pertains to them. What my brother said was about him and me.

All those sayings and expressions my brother used to engage with me and the ones Amberspyglass mentions well, perhaps people use them themselves and need to defend them. It's not right to use or defend them to me with an opening post that says they hurt me. Moving on and putting that aside, there is a bigger picture here.

It's not about those old tired expressions that get fired at us estranged children of abusive parents be that by strangers or family or even non understanding friends. We All get them fired at us. There are so many people who hear this as if all estranged children are the same and all situations are the same so firing a good old "how will you feel when they die" should do the trick.

What it is about is How completely impersonal they are

This is my brother and he communicated with me with only well used phrases or declarations that are at best guilt trips and manipulations and gaslighting especially used on anyone with an abusive upbringing.

At best, and I mean at best because obviously people here agree with those and that it ok to say them, at best it is just completely impersonal and unfeeling.

Where is the care?

Where is the understanding?

Where is the love?

Where is there any heartfelt attempt to genuinely reconnect?

It's easy to throw out a "how will you feel when they die" or a "you will regret this one day" or "you are teaching your children to estrange you" or any of the others I've heard that don't fairly relate to my situation.

You would never see me listen, advise or try to connect to another person with tired old tropes used too often to place blame, guilt or responsibility on someone's shoulders by their abusers or the enablers in their lives.

I don't like it, I am sure anyone who has given up on any relationship has considered all the eventual problems and outcomes and I see no benefit at all from waving it under their noses in such an impersonal way.

So that is how I feel, and how my brothers use of them impacted me and why I found it painful to have them repeated or defended here on a situation that was already painful to me.

It hurt my feelings. How many bad situations arise because people's feelings are hurt and not respected because others don't agree those feelings should be hurt? Too many.

Anyway, enough of that. I have said what I needed too completely now and I have listened and thought about others situations and points of view. As they pertain to them though, not my situation.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 18:48:02

How will you feel when she dies?
I have been asked that, and frankly, that’s my problem to deal with.
But my husband has asked me, and that’s out of concern for me.
Obviously I don’t really know how I’ll feel, none of us do.

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 19:08:23

My husband hasn't asked me that thankfully Sara and I haven't asked him that, we are both estranged for very different reasons so maybe we both just have the same understanding of how that would be a painful question and a pointless one.

No of course its not possible to know until it happens, however, my choice has been made so I will have to deal with it at some point.

I'll guess and say that I will be sad that there was no accountability, understanding and change and that she didn't value me enough to heal herself from her own issues.

Madgran77 Sat 02-Oct-21 19:33:12

* I'd appreciate if time were taken to listen and understand instead of argue because people don't agree*

I'm sorry if my comments came over as arguing. That was not the intention.

I have read right through the whole thread again and from your mention of the use of old tropes I now understand your earlier references. Thankyou for explaining.

Hetty58 Sat 02-Oct-21 19:35:38

Amberspyglass, I didn't think any posts were inappropriate - or meant to diminish VioletSky's post - so I suppose I just read them differently.

They were individual experiences of estrangement, seen from various views, to me. I've read them all, and found them so interesting, as normally, it's never spoken about.

JaneJudge Sat 02-Oct-21 19:38:09

When someone asks me how I will feel when biological father dies, I wonder what abuse I will get when that happens from beyond the grave. He will have some sort of plan to try to hurt me.

I wish people wouldn't be so sentimental about other people's families not all people are reasonable or even normal.

Madgran77 Sat 02-Oct-21 19:40:17

not all people are reasonable

Very true!

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 19:47:18

Thank you for listening Madgran

I agree too, not all families are reasonable at all.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 21:02:41

We've been asked that too Sara even though it seems unlikely that we will die before our ES which is how it should be of course.

TBH I don't think it's unreasonable or insensitive to ask an EAC if they've considered how they'll feel when the parent(s) they've estranged dies, or if they've thought about the lessons they may be teaching their own children.

Presumably these difficult questions are considered before such a monumental decision is taken.

You say your H asked you out of concern Sarasmile so I don't understand why anyone would assume that being asking these questions, even on a forum like this, is also not asking out of concern.

I'm sure all of us would appreciate others taking the time to listen rather than argue or make accusations of hurting someone for that matter, but life doesn't always give us what we want does it.

Well you're not the only one who has read the posts on this thread differently Hettysmile.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 21:11:42

Smileless
I think you’re right, it’s a question which is usually asked out of concern, or just interest.
Occasionally it’s asked in a more challenging way, implying you’ll jolly well regret it.
I think my husband feels that her death will leave me with a lot is unanswered questions, but to be honest, none of it matters anymore.
Anyway, the way she’s going, she may outlive me!

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 21:29:23

Everyone is of course entitled to think and behave as they wish.

Everyone else is entitled to feel how they feel about it and I suppose it depends what you are hoping to achieve by ignoring the feelings of others.

My mum of course treated me in horrific ways that went unseen by my brother and I would assume my brother hoped to be a "hero" fix ethe situation but the impersonal nature of his approach wasnt going to work on me.

If explaining to him how his way of speaking to me makes me feel doesn't encourage him to rethink that approach then of course he will just continue to get the same result and has no one to blame but himself.

Kali2 Sat 02-Oct-21 21:39:25

Perhaps, but will he be the 'loser' in all this?

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 21:43:50

Kali2

Perhaps, but will he be the 'loser' in all this?

There are no winners in estrangement.

It's a horrible situation for any family to find themselves in.

But I will be happier

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 21:45:43

Meaning happier in myself than I was, which is the only competition I need.

Smileless2012 Sat 02-Oct-21 21:47:43

Sara smile I'm glad that you feel as you do. You're clearly at peace with the decision you've made.

Sara1954 Sat 02-Oct-21 21:50:16

Smileless
Thankyou, I am.

VioletSky Sat 02-Oct-21 23:11:59

What my brother was doing, with or without his own understanding was abuse by proxy.

Repeating things that my mother has also said.

Every family member that I no longer have a relationship with, repeated these exact same things to me.

So when they reach out to me that way I know that there isn't going to be any listening or understanding because they have already bought in to her narrative so much that they are repeating it. I was trying anyway because I wanted to give people a chance, but well, these methods and phrases have power and the power that they have is that they sound reasonable in the wrong hands. It is not always that easy to tell how they are being used. Which is obviously why I don't use them.

Hopefully others might consider that it is difficult to know how these things are meant and maybe it would be better to talk to people with feeling and care instead of too often repeated sayings...

Generally it doesn't bother me at all and I just notice it and move on like ah, there that tired old trope is again, completely irrelevant to any abused adult child.

Here where I was explaining why what my brother was saying pushed me away further it has been necessary to help people understand why the way he is communicating with me has had the result of me blocking him.

Important to note though. He does not want to have a relationship with me unless I have one with my mother and my mother is verbally abusive and I still carry the physical scars from physical abuse as a child. So it's not a resolvable situation unless he changes his mind on that and even though having him believe and understand me would be wonderful, I do have a good support system. No matter what my mum is guilty of it feels wrong to try to take away her support system or ruin his relationship or perception of her so it is better this way for all involved.

Anyway this has all really helped me think things through and come to a place where I can put his emails behind me so I do genuinely appreciate all the replies.

Caleo Sun 03-Oct-21 00:02:55

Violet Sky, if your brother had said your mother was remorseful about her unkindness to you, would you have given your mother another chance?

Sara1954 Sun 03-Oct-21 09:42:08

Caleo
I know your question is to VioletSky, but it would be very hard, if not impossible to ever have a relationship with someone who had treated you badly.
You would question their motives, and never trust that they were genuine.
I think Violet should just turn her back on it all.