SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

All I meant is that as a child if one of my parents had that view I would be concerned for them that they hadn't been able to forgive

I'm not sure such a decision is about forgiveness/not forgiving.

If someone learns to live without someone that they care about (because of the other person's decision) then they may well choose to come to the end of their life without that person, for their own peace of mind about the end of their life.

How the estranging person feels about that is for them to deal with, a consequence of their decision. It is not the responsibility of the person who has been estranged.

Such a painful and difficult decision and we are all different in how we feel and approach such difficulties.

Smileless it's totally your decision. All I meant is that as a child if one of my parents had that view I would be concerned for them that they hadn't been able to forgive.

That's probably because I don't think of unforgiveness meaning revenge or punishment, just of holding on to pain.

It must be very painful, especially after nine years

I agree with you and Whiff that it is incredibly mean to estrange one parent after the other has died. Something did pop into my mind though- and that is, if it's painful to see one child because it reminds you that the other is not available, what if children feel that same about parents? I mean, what if it's a cowardly thing because they cannot cope with the reminder that there's only one parent now? Perhaps if they don't see the one that's left they don't have to be reminded of the painful loss of the other? Not excusing it, but possibly trying to understand what might cause that behaviour?

My parents are acrimoniously divorced and I have already decided that ahead of my (landmark) birthday this year I will not celebrate with either of them. It should have been possible to celebrate this landmark with both of them, except for their bitterness towards each other. As it is, they are both alive, but drip poison towards each other and about each other, constantly. I am as supportive to both as I can be, but the only way I can have a truly "Happy" birthday is without both of them. Unfortunately I can't invite both of them or there will be trouble and I can't invite one and not the other. I don't see why I should have to have two birthdays to appease them both, so officially I am going on holiday during that time, but might have a small celebration with selected people. It's a shame their bitterness has ruined all of the family occasions we used to share. It would be lovely if they could forgive each other. Not to get back together, if they don't want to- but to reach a truce, to GP together and be united for their kids and GC.

My husband's parents were divorced, but they managed to work together well as parents and GP after their divorce because their kids came first. I wish mine would stop making everything all about themselves, but they won't because each wants to obliterate the other. The unforgiveness is so sad because it's robbing them of the times we could have if things were different.

Yogin you are thinking ahead and are trying to come up with ideas about storage when you move. Maybe sort out some of the things you can live without and then the large storage shed out in the garden can be used for things you keep. Your EstDs husband sounds cruel and there is no need for cruelty to animals. If anyone is cruel to animals anywhere near me they are certainly told about themselves. I have reported two lots of people to R.S.P.C.A in the past for animals left in garden all weathers neglected and unfed. The animals were removed by R.S.P.C.A. for the neglect and quite right they did not deserve to keep animals in conditions like that.

Smileless I also have a few things I cannot part with, I have two pairs of my mothers shoes and two handbags. I also have
two cardigans of hers hanging in the wardrobe. I also have two gold rings of my mothers and two gold rings belonging to my father. I will give the gold rings that belonged to my father to my son, he does not wear jewellery only a watch oh I almost forgot him and his partner both wear white gold band wedding rings but I will ask him to keep them and put them away.

Whiff I think I will do the same as you with my gold jewellery and sell it. My two daughters in the past would comment on how nice some of my jewellery looked on me but they made it clear that heavy gold charm bracelets, gold gate bracelets, also gold chains with various lockets plus an assortment of gold ear-rings held no interest for them. So little point in passing the gold to them. I do have some rings and may leave a few rings for them as keepsakes they can do as they please with them. I may as well get some money back on the gold and buy myself something else instead.
Have a good day All.

Thank you Whiff but it is hard at times to feel anything but gloom. It is the viciousness of them that is hard to get my head around. They were both such lovely children, kind and caring.

Yoginimeisje I try and keep busy with my watercolour painting and knitting. Yesterday I designed a card for my best friends birthday.

Smileless I love having my youngest son come and stay as he is a breath of fresh air and a very half full person. He is very “can do” and my lovely DH can be a bit negative at times. Every time I waive him off I have a good cry but he does phone me at least once per week with his updates. I try and keep upbeat but once that phone goes down I am like a pack of cards and just collapse.

Yogin you have things well in hand for your move and thinking ahead to solve storage problems.

I got rid of a lot of things because I down sized and knew I didn't want anything going into the loft. I have a large garage for all my garden things , spare paint and toys for outside etc.

Smiles I gave my wedding dress away to a charity. It held no sentimental value to for me. As it was a large size it probably went quickly either as a wedding dress or for the fabric. It was cream satin with lace overdress . A dressmaker made it from a picture for me. Cost me £30 for material and £10 to have it made.

When I moved here neither my children wanted my necklaces or charm bracelets so I sold them to an online buy your gold company. The silver didn't fetch much but the gold paid for a quality double bed and mattress and solid wood bedside table. I only wear one necklace the last one my husband brought me it's white gold . The only rings I have are my wedding ring which I still wear , engagement ring,a cameo ring my parents brought me for my 21st which my daughter wore when she married and my mom's and nan's wedding rings which my daughter will have .

I like not having a lot things like ornaments. But am guilty of having over 300 books but I did get rid of 200 . Unfortunately can't resist buying more. Same with my cross stitch supplies I add to my stash. But I have everything in plastic storage boxes under both beds so they are out of the way . But I buy things when they are on offer. Love a bargain.

As I posted on Friday Onward it has nothing to do with revenge or punishment, I just wouldn't want to see our EAC if I were seriously ill.

We have learned for the last 9 years to live without him and to make a life without him. We love him and not having him in our lives was not what we would ever have wanted. Seeing him if I were seriously ill or diagnosed with a terminal illness is not something I will do.

It certainly looks as if you're on the mend 3nanny.

Pixie I'm glad you had a 'thank you' text from your GD's. You know that they received the tokens you'd sent and that it was important to them that they thanked you.

When you have your son to stay, it's a sharp reminder of what you're missing with your other two children so it's understandable that you'd feel bereft when he left. I sometimes find just seeing and talking to our DS via the internet because he's in Aus. leaves me feeling that way when the call's ended.

I miss being called 'mum' and I miss being able to be mum to our ES.

I find that unbelievably cruel Whiff, to wait until father's have died or left and mum's are left alone before estranging. To me, you're all amazing, courageous and strong women.

There were times at the beginning of our estrangement when I didn't think I'd 'make it' and if not for Mr. S. I don't know if I would have.

You'll find room Yogin and a storage shed is an excellent idea. You can put things into storage but I think it can be rather expensive.

I want us to have a good sort out. Space isn't a problem as this is the biggest house we've ever had but we bought stuff with us 5 years ago that's never seen the light of day so we obviously don't need it.

Some things I can never part with though. My gran's hand Singer sewing machine. The wedding dress she made for my mum. The beautiful baby garments she knitted for the boys and my own wedding dress, stored in the original box.

Maybe one day, but not now.

Pixie so sorry for what you've been put through , why do our AC feel the need to be so vicious with their words, to a mum that has loved them so. I felt I was having a breakdown, but doing my yoga every day, some days 2-4 times a day, kept me sane and living.

Thank you Smiles yes has original features, but where all must stuff will go from my attic and spare room I don't know! I'll get a big storage shed immediately, their is a garden studio that's quite big, thinking if I don't sell my big expensive wardrobe, I could put that in the garden studio and put winter coats etc. in there.

Thank you Madgran

3nannt6 I've only told my DD I want to be buried. I have lots of lovely jewellery from when we lived in Africa. When we lived in Zimbabwe we couldn't transfer money out, so bought jewellery. I did recently say what bits I wanted my DD to have, when I move I'll need a new will so may put it in there. I inherited some lovely gold jewellery from my mum, a gold locked with my m&d's pics in which is very special.

Yes I see my estD's H as a cruel person, cruel to animals, that's why I & my DD worry so much about my estD & GD!

Hilltop what a shame your son didn't stay in touch. xx

Purplepixie sorry your elder children are treating you this way. But glad your granddaughter's contacted you to say thank you. Shows they have better manners than their mom.

I know some on here don't like the Warrior Queen name and you say you don't feel like one. But you are . We all have what I call wobbles . When it all gets to much for us . We all are carrying around a heavy burden not of our own making.

Our estranged children must think they are the perfect parents and they haven't done a thing wrong when raising their children. They are in for rude awakening when their children day turn around one day and points out all the things they did or didn't didn't do when they where growing up.

I always told my children they don't come with an instruction book and there is no reset button. We always did the best we good for our children. But they forget parents are human . I would never have dreamed of telling my parents the things they should have told us or done when me and my brother where growing up. And would never have pointed out to my son and daughter in law things they where doing wrong with my grandson's. They are the parents I am only the nannie. But my son decided to throw back in my face all the things he thought I had done wrong. Funny enough it was only things since my husband died. His version of events differ from mine. I could point out all the things they have done since my husband died but didn't.

It's funny he waited until I moved here and had been coming every week with his 2 eldest for 7 months then Covid hit. He still kept in touch and saw me in April . 4 days later I was the mother, mother in law and grandmother from hell.

Funny my daughter and son in law don't think so. They trust me with my grandson's . My son and daughter in law never left me alone with their boys. Which reflects on them not me.

Purplepixie you are a survivor and stronger than you give yourself credit for . What you have been through shows how strong you are.

We live in a throw away society. Seems parents are easily thrown away. I sometimes feel I had a best before date that my son and daughter in law had stamped on me. When it reached that date off to the rubbish tip with me do not recycle.

While I have wobbles . I know who I am . I am a strong woman a Warrior Queen if I wasn't what I have been through in my life since having the children would have sent some people round the twist.

All on here know our own worth. It is not us who gave up on our children they gave up on us. It's amazing how many waited until some of us mom's are on our own without the support of our much loved husband's.

Hi all. Sorry I am a bit out of step with you all. I had to step away for a while.

We had a lovely Christmas with my youngest son and DH and I went away for New Years. My eldest son has not been in touch and to be honest I am not bothered about hearing from him in a while. He really hurt me when we had that phone call on 20th December 2021 and I just cannot get it out of my head. He said that he wouldn’t lose any sleep over not speaking to me. All he said really hurts like hell. I sent my daughter a card at christmas with a gift voucher in there. Something which I have done in all the 7 years that I haven’t seen or heard from her. No word that she got them but I also put my grand daughters in the same envelope and they sent texts to say thank you. I feel like not sending her anymore in the future and just concentrating on my grand daughters. I pass her house on the way to the shops. Then after New Year my youngest son came home for his birthday and once he had gone back to his flat and flat mates I fell to pieces. I feel like I have had a mini nervous breakdown and fed up with the whole thing to do with my eldest children. At night I keep going over old scenarios with their dad who was a vicious wife beater. Some things I just cannot tell anyone and yet they haunt me. I really do not feel like a warrior queen anymore but I know I will get my strength back up!

Hi Yogin, I do hope you have sorted things out with the house your leaving the new Victorian flat sounds lovely I do like Victorian houses. To be mortgage free and have extra money in
the bank is a bonus. You will have the patio doors leading onto the garden a nice feature to have that's what I like with my sitting room the doors lead out to the garden so really nice in the summer. I am sure your little doggie will be fine.

Your Daughters husband sounds a cruel person saying something like that about your funeral. People like that should always think about things they say as none of us know what is around the corner for any of us and who knows he may even get his own comeuppance one day and wouldn't that be something nice to hear?

It is interesting to read posts about Es or Daughters being at the funerals. I care very little about my funeral after all I won't know much about it. I've got my funeral costs done and have written down what I want whether that is carried out when I have gone I don't know.
It is strange though because when I was ill with the Covid 19 my mind did think about the possibility of dying. All that crossed my mind was I wonder what will happen to all my gold jewellery. I know my daughters do not care for gold jewellery and never wear it. In the past I have bought them silver jewellery which they liked but they lose it or just stop wearing it so I stopped bothering. I have some lovely gold and do not wear half of it and maybe I will just try to find a
reputable buyer and sell some of it and collect money for myself. Without wanting to sound horrible I thought if anything happens to me my two girls would be in my house and go through anything valuable and my gold would be their first choice. Such silly thoughts to have after all what would I need all the jewellery for if I wasn't here.

Best to keep to more positive thoughts for the first time since beginning of December when I got unwell I have been able to smell properly and was over the moon. I peeled an onion
to put into some chicken I was cooking and when I chopped it my eyes started watering and stinging just as they always do when I peel onions it was great I was like a child that had just been given a Christmas present, all that over an onion.
Take care All.

Smileless my friend is having contact with her GC, but is still sadly estranged from her son. The GC does not live with her ES. It has all been arranged in his absence, without him as he has a family elsewhere and another partner.

Putting myself in the shoes of an estranged child (as I have been estranged by a parent) it would make me really sad to think that one of my parents may not wish to see me, even if they were seriously ill and that they could not forgive me for whatever it was - even at the end. I would feel sad for them, and for me. Not sure if it makes any difference to have a child's perspective there.

As a child my mother used to say the phrase "unforgiveable" and as an adult I find it quite triggering. I find it very heartbreaking that someone would cut someone off and deem them "unforgiveable" because estrangement has been in our family in previous generations and I've seen it's effects. There is fault on both sides, but when one side deems the other as "unforgiveable" it is a fatal blow. I hope I will continue to find it in my heart to forgive my parents and my children, even though it is often very hard.

The ES did not send the final terse message until after he knew his father had died. We had exchanged a couple of quite nice messages before, and he knew there was to be a direct Cremation.
I was quite chatty in my messages and now wish l hadn't been so forthcoming with information.
Oh well, l feel it's just water under the bridge now, just part of the overall pattern of estrangement.

Hilltop, I am so sorry that you had that extra worry from your son when your husband was dying. Very cruel, if he did that to my lovely husband, I wouldn’t want him anywhere near me, not at my funeral, wouldn’t want him told. He well and truly crossed the line.?

That was an awful thing to do Hilltop and reinforces my decision that if Mr. S. did want to see our ES, I'd have nothing to do with it and would make sure I wasn't there at the same time.

Thank you Madgran. I'm OK about it now. Like others on this thread, l know the estrangement is caused by his wife. I thought we were getting on fine until it suddenly happened. Which is why l am sorry for him.

After a couple more exchanges l was texted a very terse message and have not heard from him since. This was a year ago now

Hilltop what a difficult thing to deal with. If you would like further information I am happy for you to PM me.

and they [GC] want even be allowed to go to your funeral

That was very hard for you Yogin

When my husband was on End of Life Care , only for a week, my daughter and l discussed what we should do about the ES. We decided we would not be put in the wrong and sent him a message telling him and asking if he wanted us to say anything to his father.
He immediately sent a lovely message with things he wanted said. He then sent me flowers "with love from his wife and ES"
I do not think his wife would have known that the flowers were sent.
After a couple more exchanges l was texted a very terse message and have not heard from him since. This was a year ago now.
I have told my daughter not to tell him anything about me until after my death. Come to think of it, why bother then? Though as my will is at the moment l have left him a small percentage, as l feel sorry for him, so l suppose he will know eventually.
I shall also look into Madgran info.

Your flat sounds lovely Yogin I love Victorian buildings, does your flat have any of the original features?

Mortgage free and a bit of money in the bank, it couldn't be better could it. You've certainly had a stressful time of it and must be looking forward to settling into your new home. The patio doors opening onto the garden sounds perfect.

Your D's H really is a nasty piece of work isn't he.

Same thoughts as you Smiles regarding Elliss scenario. Don't care about my funeral. I always remember my estD's H saying to me as I left the courts, he stood geering at me saying and they [GC] want even be allowed to go to your funeral

I went to the beach for a walk yesterday, freezing! my little dog loved it though. I also have lot's of LPs.

Elless

This latest topic has prompted me to ask a question I often think about - if (hypothetically) you were seriously ill in hospital and your EAC turned up at your bedside what would you do?, I often ask myself this and also if my Husband was ill, do I let my ES know?

Strange as I get this daydream too Elless

3nanny6 Yes stay where you are, for the sake of your dog. I worry about my little doggie with the move. It's over a year now since I first 'sold'' & brought a new place, nightmare! Have the buyers coming round again this morning, they were pushing to move before Xmas and now, we were ready to exchange on Thursday, but they failed to put their deposits in and then said they wanted another viewing. Had the 2 EA phoning me and my solicitor what's going on and I've been told to nail them down today as to what? If they pulled out I would get 10-20K more for this property so I wouldn't cry too much.

I'm moving from a 4bed to a 1/2 bed ground floor flat, a big Victorian house with upstairs & downstairs flat. I have patio doors onto the garden, so it's just like a bungalow really. I'll be mortgage free with a bit of money in the bank, hence the move.

One of the best things about Gransnet is what one can learn!

Have you seen the "Ridiculously Easy Recipes" thread. Brilliant for great ideas and really quick cooking!!

This something we will definitely look into Madgran, thanks for the info. it's amazing what you can learn on GN isn't it.

No you do not need a solicitor. This is a document that has to be taken into account by all carers etc and is recognised by the Health service as a valid communication from any patient.

Especially important if the patient can't communicate but I think in the case of estrangement maybe particularly important as carers/medical staff may not fully accept a verbal message from a relative about the patients wishes. (the old "but its her son/her mum/dad, of course she would want him/her to come" chestnut!!!)