SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Just popping on. Haven't read the latest posts will do when feeling more myself. Pain isn't as bad today but at least I slept well.

Abandoned parents: The devils dilemma arrived . Already in tears by page 15.

This sentence stood out. " There is not a crueler action to take against another human being than ostracism, abandonment and alienation , and especially when that other human being is your parent. "

Thank you Smiles and Yogin for recommending the book. The author knows how it feels and feels like she is speaking to me . I hope others get a copy and read it.

Will be back on tomorrow. ?

Hope you are feeling a bit better today Whiff take care.

Derbyshiregirl Im so sorry about the 4 weeks of NC. I know it's painful. What do they think will happen? That we'll chase them down and offer them all our money in return for Christmas with the GC?

Baiting is unfortunately a common thing within Narcissism. I've often thought that my son may be baiting me so he can say to my DiL "I TOLD you she was unreasonable".

A week after my son told me I'd be dead to him for having the vaccine, he continued to talk to me intensely. He refused to discuss GC or anything that actually mattered to me and was putting a lot of pressure on me to invest in an online financial scheme. When I refused to do that was when he cut me off, finally. My eyes are open. I see he just wanted money and doesn't care.

We are still going to send a gift to GC for Christmas. It will probbaly be the only ones they get seeing as my son has cut off everyone. It's not fair on the kids is it to have no one, see no one AND get no gifts. To think no one cares about the except their parents is a total lie that those parents are happy to perpetuate.

I know that I will not shop for gifts for my EAC and DiL. They may get a supermarket voucher so they can buy themselves the Christmas dinner they won't be getting here. Lets face it, money is all they care about. Maybe I'm too nice.

It's sunny here, hope you Warrior Queens have the best day possible. Hope you are ok Whiff

Thanks for that Smiles......good point ....maybe I'll skip the "vague and absent minded" act and just concentrate on being busy. Actually it's the truth, I have been busy and I will be even more so in the new year. Just waiting to get my covid booster and flu jab and then I do intend to get out and about more,

And sadly I think you may be right about "loving too much". Didn't Shakespeare say something about that.....I think it's in Romeo and Juliet. I'll have to try and look it up when I've got a minute.

That old chestnut about love being blind does seem to have a certain ring of truth. Our sons are blind to the control and coercion but I think I may have been blind about my son too.

These character traits that have recently come to the fore or perhaps I should say which I am now noticing. Were they always there, was I just too doting to spot them.

Gaagghhhh. You could drive yourself insane trying to work it out.

Right just had a nice bowl of porridge. So I'm off out now.

Just seen your post Bridie and the weather's the same here.

Going round and round in ever decreasing circles gets us no where and my experience of a closed site was pretty much like that Onward. Because I was on GN at the time, I did try to encourage talk about other aspects of our lives but to no avail.

It became really rather depressing and eventually the site closed down. I do think about some of the contributors and wonder how they're doing now.

Years ago my s.i.l. not long after her D was born, asked me if you could love someone too much. I didn't think so then but now I think you can. Perhaps that can blind us to someone's true nature, perhaps there was a side to our ES's personality that I just couldn't see.

When they get in touch, I feel certain they will DSL to come across as having been so busy with house, garden and business is a brilliant tactic. I wouldn't come across as vague and absent minded, far better for her to know that her plan has failed, that you haven't been counting the days since you last heard from or saw your son. She'll be furious!!!.

I agree DiamondLily that sometimes people get unfairly blamed when there's estrangement. You certainly see examples of that elsewhere but thankfully not here.

Your former H made his own decision and when you made yours, there was no expectation that he or your children would not see his mother; as it should be.

DerbyshireLass...its raining, grey and freezing here!!?
I think its xmas that makes it harder to cope with , sorting cards and pressies etc brings memories to mind, like all special days are harder to get through, but as you say we will cope and plod on with our lives.
DiamondLily... such sad situations to be in, I have tried communicating but to no avail...I have always supported and cared for them ,so this situation is alien to me...however reading some posts it would appear that that some estrangees seem to enjoy the control and hurt they inflict...so cruel.

Hi Lily......sounds like you did the right thing. And yes, I agree, I sometimes think the internet has caused more harm than good, especially within the field of human relationships.

But I see the internet itself as just another tool. Tools are neutral in themselves but it depends on how we use them. The internet can be weaponised just like anything else, it can be a force for good or evil. Like you say people can use it to trash the reputation of anyone they perceive as an enemy.

I have disengaged from all my DILs social media so I've no idea whether or not she slanders me. I am not bothered if she does, Those who know me know the truth. As you say, that's what really matters isn't it,

Bridie.....thanks but tbh I wish I didn't have to devote so much of my time and energy to it,. It's not easy to stay focused, some days my mind is all over the place. It was yesterday. I was so unhappy and so confused but in the end I decided to just calm down and try and work out a plan of action. In my case I decided on non action.

I decided that my fight back would take the form of "passive resistance." Go DEEP and just not take the bait. If it was good enough for Ghandi then it's good enough for me, lol.

It's all this not knowing which so unsettling. Will they estrange me permanently or not. How much longer are we going to limp along, neither estranged or properly engaged. I am beginning to think full estrangement would be preferable to living in limbo like this.

If our Acs would only just sit and talk with us then possibly we could help them through their difficulties. Families should help and support each other, not tear each other apart. I think that's why Christmas is so hard for us.

These are the busiest years of our ACs lives, juggling jobs and family life. I can remember how hard it was, my Husband and I didn't live near either set of parents and there were times we really needed some support. Luckily we had lovely neighbours, one side became almost surrogate grandparents but I would have loved to have been nearer to family.

By estranging us they have cut off their support network and are battling through alone, so unnecessary. I know that for our DILs it's all about control. They want to be Queen Bee and that's as it should be but really MILs aren't a threat. We could be one of their greatest assets and allies if they would let us. We could make their lives so much easier but they are too short sighted and insecure to see it.

Anyway, after a day of ruminating yesterday I have worked out how I am going to respond and how I am going to handle things. So now I'm basically just going to leave them to it and crack on with my plans for my own life I wont turn my back on them, I will receive them here and I will accept invitations but I wont initiate anything. Just go with the flow but I will set boundaries. No more dropping my own plans or changing my schedule to accommodate them.

It's a lovely day here. Blue skies and sunshine, I'm going to Dunhelm to get some fabric to reupholster my dining chairs.

Might treat myself to some new sofa cushions with the money I will be saving by not spending so much in lavish Christmas presents this year. ?? My DIL calls me cheap, maybe I should start living up to that reputation and spend the money on myself instead of them. Tee hee.

Hope everyone is ok and you are all feeling a little brighter today.

I think sometimes people get unfairly blamed for some aspects of estrangement. Not always, but sometimes..

I estranged my ex MIL in 1979, because she pulled one toxic stroke too far with me. I’d do the same again now, if similar happened.

But, I told my ex that I wasn’t going to see her, but, obviously, she was his mother, and if he wanted to keep in contact with her, then no problems with me about that.

I said I had no problem with him taking the children to see her, providing he remained with them at all times.

However when he found out what’s she’d done, which was the latest in a long saga of dramas, HE made the decision he never wanted contact with her again, and at the point we divorced in 2004 (entirely separate reasons), neither of us saw her again. I don’t think he saw her afterwards, and she died last year.

But, that didn’t stop her blaming her ‘evil DIL” for taking her son away lol

She told everyone this, obviously not realising it made her son sound like a spineless wimp with him apparently obeying me!

She didn’t know the buzzwords, such as Narc, I was just evil…??

To be honest, most people, that knew us, knew the truth, and we used to have a good laugh about it, but she never once looked at her own toxicity.

Thsnk God the internet and forums hadn’t arrived then, or I’d no doubt have been accused of all sorts, all over them lol

Derbyshirelass, I admire your focus, mine veers from moment to moment !
Whiff ... I'm sorry to hear you are having a rough patch, I hope your medication is sorted soon.?

Some very interesting posts about some of the online support groups. I'm not sure that all of them are entirely healthy. A lot of the posters do seem to egg each other on.

I think it all boils down to everyone having their own perspective, which more often than not will be based on their own personal experience. It can be hard to remain "reasonable" or objective when you are in emotional pain and it's only too easy to lash out and say the wrong thing in the heat of the moment. We all have those foot in the mouth moments when we think "why didn't I just keep my mouth shut"

, I'm always minded of the lyrics of the song "If I could turn back time". I often think the two saddest words in the English Language are "if only". If only I had done this, or if only I hadn't done that but we are only human. Humans make mistakes, none of us are infallible. Torturing ourselves won't help. It is only by sitting down and talking it out that we can have any chance of putting matters right. But our EACs either can't or wont do this, they estrange instead.

I agree wholeheartedly that simply turning one's back on someone without a word of explanation is just wrong. It shuts and bolts the door against any chance of reaching an understanding. How can there be any chance of reconciliation or righting wrongs if there is zero communication.

Yes Smiles.....it's been 4 weeks of silent treatment again. I think you are right, it's just game playing and an attempt at control and manipulation. It's deliberate provocation.

Well despite being angry I won't take the bait. My eyes are wide open now and I wont walk into the trap. It's what she wants.......so she can say "look at your mum ...she is so demanding, she is unreasonable and irrational". It would be playing right into her hands, giving her the excuse to say "OMG I am under so much pressure, I can't take it, I'm broken, I need to get away, let's book a holiday, I can't cook or do anything, I'm exhausted, let's go out to dinner". ??. I can practically write the script word for word. And he will go along with it like he has so many times before. I've lost count of the times they have had to have a last minute holiday because Madam is "exhausted and stressed". Five star hotels of course,

And once again they will break out the plastic in order to placate her and smooth her ruffled feathers. Narcissistic abuse also encompasses financial abuse. I've mentioned before that her spending is terrifying. She calls me cheap?? because I am a little more circumspect with my finances. But I'm not the one whose credit card was declined when she offered to buy me lunch and I ended up paying the bill.

This is the main reason why, unless the situation improves, I will be changing my will. She will get no financial benefit from my death.

Let her play her silly games, and let my son blindly follow where she leads. I wont rise. I have been thinking .......Trying to work out the best way respond to this latest round of game playing because she is obviously doubling down on her efforts at coercive control.

I have decided to adopt a kind of vagueness about the passage of time, the visits becoming further and further apart, and the extended periods of silent treatment. If they draw attention to how long it's been I will feign astonishment, I will have been far too busy to notice.?. It will take the wind out of her sails because it won't be the reaction she expects. She will be wanting me to get upset.

Whatever happens, they will never know how much they have hurt me. I will never give them that satisfaction. I wont give her the opportunity to use that information against me, to twist the knife or tighten the screws. She would use my pain as a weapon to try and humiliate me. I won't give her that power. I can act daft and pretend to be vague and absent minded. With any luck she will be taken in and will gloat that I'm losing my marbles. She might then get complacent and careless and overplay her hand, which might just possibly mean that the scales will fall from my sons eyes at last.

Oh my I do sound rather Machiavellian don't I, scheming and plotting. ??. Still.....what is it they say about fighting fire with fire. She's intelligent but naive but I have the dubious advantage of having had to cope with a narcissistic father for some 65 years. I have had plenty of practice and I did learn a few tricks. ?.

Whiff.....you poor thing. So sorry to hear you are struggling so much. I hope they can sort your meds out soon. Look after yourself,

Thanks so much Smileless Yes the jealousy, the green eyed monster is strong in this one . If I am guilty of anything, its loving him too much. I have no idea why he has always been so jealous of me talking to everyone but him because I always gave him loads of attention- just nothing was ever enough.

I've never tried any other Estrangement forums, but I really appreciate all you Warrior Queens here, so I probably won't.
Thanks for sharing what those forums are like. At least here, we are all doing other things and getting along with our lifes as best we can, taking pleasure in things- despite the pain.

That goes without saying.

I think reasonable people listen to reasonable voices....

Whiff take it easy and look after yourself. Your poor heart, not just the physical problems but losing your beloved DH and now this with your son.

I hope you an get a good night's rest. Pop on tomorrow so we know you're OK x

It's good that things are becoming clearer Onward, even when we can't make sense of what's happened having a clearer overall perspective does help.

I know for you it's your son but the jealousy is there isn't it. He's jealous of the possibility of you being close to his wife, and girl friends in the past, for me and others it's been the jealousy our AC's partners of the relationship they had with their parents. isn't called the green eyed monster for nothing.

A very interesting post Spring and comes as no surprise. Closed sites can do more to exacerbate the difficulties people have for coping with a particular problem/situation then helping people to find ways to cope.

I was on one myself for EP's/EGP's and eventually left because people weren't being encouraged to heal, but to stay in their pit of pain and despair.

I too have seen EAC being dissuaded from reaching out to their parents by those who are themselves estranged. I've seen here on GN an AC or s.i.l. but usually d.i.l. looking for ways to improve the relationship they have with their parent(s)/p's.i.l., being advised to walk away, rather than be encouraged in their aim to find a workable solution.

Sometimes reasoned voices just aren't welcomed especially if it interferes with those who have their own agendas to pursue. As the saying goes 'misery loves company' and maybe for some poor soles, having been unable to resolve their own problems doesn't enable them to see others resolve theirs.

I wasn't talking about groups for abuse survivors Violetsky - I agree that's something entirely different.

Other things I have not lost are: my faith, any more money from bailing him out, my peace, I have not lost my other son who EAC tried and failed to set against me.

It's awful to say it, but when we were out walking today my husband and I agreed we don't miss any of the stress caused by EAC, but we do miss family times and GC. We hope that in future something causes our EAC to come down to earth with a bump and grow up. It would be great if he finally realises that he does not know everything and stops trying to brainwash people into thinking what he thinks he knows and doing what suits him. I know, pride comes before a fall. Trying to be patient!

Well, my son said a lot of things to me before he estranged. I refused to let him control or coerce me into doing what he wanted. In the end I've lost my GC as he threatened, but what I haven't lost is my sense of self, my identity, my own thoughts and my self respect. I haven't lost any more time due to him causing me stress from putting pressure on me.

I would like to think there is a way back from estrangement for me, but he would have to change because I am not going to obey him or allow him to coerce and control me.

Spring20 we don't all estrange without giving reasons. I certainly tried to explain. When estranging an abuser though no one owes an explanation.

I don't think groups for abuse survivors need non abuse survivors to have reasoned voices.

Because these are groups for abuse survivors then the assumed context when commenting on posts is that the person posting has been abused. However what can and does often get shot down is any thought of revenge against their parents. They are encouraged always to get professional support if showing signs of needing it.

Places like this have a mixture of EAC and EPs if people want to have discussions about estrangement or get advice from EPs, EACs or just those who come accross an estrangement thread and wish to comment.

Many EP only groups online are also private and I would not wish to go there or expect them to listen to my voice. I wouldn't assume they have been estranged for the same reasons I did so. Perhaps I could tell them a little about how some behaviours may be seen and received by their adult children but what they want is support from people in their situation who understand. That would not be me in that situation.

So sorry Whiff I hope they help you ASAP so you can get some relief!

Thanks Smileless for those lovely posts.

I feel my situation is different that the rest of you because I don't think it's my DiL, (at least not solely). My son has always tried to prevent me getting along with anyone who wasn't him. He's incredibly jealous and I believe he's estranged me/us because I "disobeyed" him and refused to let him dictate what I should believe and do. I honestly don't know if this makes my situation any better or any worse because he thinks he knows everything and woe betide anyone who doesn't do what he says.

I thought about it quite a lot today and it does become clearer, not that it changes anything.

for all you Warrior Queens

Violetsky - I don't doubt EAC estrange for a reason. When they choose not to say what that reason is however, it takes away any possibility of an apology/trying to work things out. Also, a writer friend for research joined an online forum (not re estrangement) with the permission of the organisers, to see how they operated as she wanted to include it in a play storyline. She was shocked at how others in the group encouraged newcomers to take drastic steps, but what most surprised her was when a 'reasoned' voice joined the discussion on the thread, they were 'shot down' (her words). She concluded such forums can be dangerous places, because it's so easy to project one's own experiences onto others. Likewise, all experiences of estrangement are different; it may be abuse, it may be mental health issues, it may be others convincing someone they had an awful childhood etc etc. The EAC forums I've seen regularly dissuade people from reaching out to their parents - again presumably based on their own experiences and knowing nothing of the other's situation. And if, as you say, some of these groups are 'closed', then where is the possibility of a 'reasoned voice' offering an alternative viewpoint. I think this is why many parents/gparents feel frustrated.

That’s awful Whiff, I would have thought you should have had close monitoring with all your health problems, if it gets too bad I hope you ring for emergency assistance.

DerbyshireLass, OnwardandUpward and Smiles thank you. You all made me feel better about how I feel.

Unfortunately having a really bad day. Not emotionally. Had to to go too AF clinic Thursday they stopped my heart tablet and going through painful withdrawal from it today. Checked with pharmacy it normal. But very painful . All my muscles hurt and very tired. Start my new heart tablet next week once my GP gets letter from AF clinic to prescribe it. Then back to the AF clinic in 3 weeks and if ok with new tablet they will discharge from there care. The new tablet my GP can prescribe not like the old one which could only be prescribed by the hospital.

I am used to physical pain but this is getting to me today.

Thanks smileless, if only my head and heart were in sync. ?