Child estranges one gradparent

Has the mother "done anything wrong" by developing complex ptsd Bibbity?

I agree Bibbity no reason to punish the children

Mum just needs to take the right steps to be back in her sons life hopefully

Smileless I think you misread my comment. I was speaking about MY father when I spoke about allowing abuse. That is what he did my whole life. The comment he made about me putting up with her to keep the peace was made just last month. I agree that is unkind and unhelpful of my father to do.

I never said the OP's wife was abusive. I said there was conflict (due to the death of a beloved child and sister) that both the son and OP's wife were victim to which led to undesirable behavior that the son felt he needed to protect himself from.

See here:
"In this case, both the estranger and estranged are victims of events that caused the conflict"
and

"In the OP's case, the partner's experience of loosing a child, understandably, led to undesirable behavior which in turn victimized son."

Both the son and the mother were victims when their beloved child and sister died. It is in black and white in the OP. The mother's behavior created more conflict, forcing her son to make a choice to estrange. I can not see how anyone would NOT see that the son has been victimized, first in losing his sister and then in losing his mother. And now, the possibility of losing his father.

I understand that why you would feel betrayed if Mr. S had contact and a relationship with your ES and GC. You are estranged through no fault of your own. However, in my case and the OP's case, we are estranged due to the behavior of our mothers. That is a wound that can not be comprehended unless one experiences it first hand, just like being estranged for no fault of your own is a wound that can not be comprehended unless you experience it first hand, as you always say.

You chose to allow your MIL to have a relationship with her GC when you two did not get along because you believe that children have the right to know loving grandparents. Why wouldn't the OP's grandchildren not be allowed that same right?

I hope that, by continuing his relationship with his son and gc, the OP is able to help facilitate the healing of the relationship of mother and son for the future so that Grandchild has a lifelong relationship with BOTH grandparents.

We don't know Smileless.
But her actions at that time do not exempt her from what may be happening now.
He Son may forgive her and understand she was not in the right frame of mind. But he may not forget and as a result of her actions he and his family can no longer continue a relationship with her.
As I said this is what happened to us.

So in none of that have the father or children or father and son had any damage to their bonds.
I am a married woman to a man I am completely in love with. But I am an individual with my own independent relationships. Including that with my children.

Also I am on many Facebook pages of estranged children and D/Sin laws and many are able to maintain relationships with other family members while the estrangement of one individual continues.

It must be a massive trauma to lose a sibling in an untimely manner and then become estranged from your parents and have to take on the responsibility for their grief. The son wasn't the parent in the relationship and he shouldn't have been expected to act as one.

Trauma wasn't my fault, but if I don't heal then that is my responsibility. If having depression and anxiety has impacted my children that is my responsibility.

Fault and responsibility aren't the same thing unless people make no attempt to heal themselves when they know there is an issue

Fault and responsibility aren't the same thing unless people make no attempt to heal themselves when they know there is an issue

Absolutely this!

My mother is not at fault for the way she is because she was abused as a child. She is a victim just as I am. But she has the responsibility to get herself help for that, which she chose not to. That is why I estranged her. Not because of the conflict itself but because of her lack of taking responsibility for the conflict or making any effort to change her behavior. I tried for years to get her to see how her behavior affected me.

We have no idea if the OP's wife has gotten the care she needs for the complex PTSD, or the son for his either honestly. He should be getting help as well. Hopefully they both have and the OP can help mother and son can reunite when the time is right.

To the original question though, should I stop seeing my son/grandson. All I can say, which I tried to in my first post, is how I felt when my own father did not make an effort to have a relationship with me despite the conflict with my mother left me feeling like an orphan.

My mother is a damaged soul and I feel empathy for her as I have been trying to learn more about the reasons, my father had a choice. I have much less empathy for him. He made a choice and that forever changed the way I see him.

Of course this is MY experience. I can only offer my viewpoint from here. I also feel that my story and the OP's son's story have similarities. Everyone in both cases are victims, including the OP.

I think my viewpoint would be very different if I was estranged by a child and had done nothing wrong. Comparing the two completely different scenarios are like apples and oranges.

"I tried for years to get her to see how her behavior affected me."

I should have said here how her behavior affected our relationship. Because this isn't just about me, it is about her too. She too has lost out on healthy relationships. No one wins in estrangement.

I understand that you were talking about your personal experience of an abusive mother freedom and that your father did nothing to protect you. However, there is nothing in the OP to suggest that this was the case here.

You posted "..... which led to undesirable behaviour which in turn victimised son". IMO your use of the word victimised is inappropriate as it means someone being singled out for cruel or unjust treatment. We don't know that the son was singled out do we so IMO it is wrong to make this assumption.

My situation with my m.i.l. is irrelevant. This is about a father being able to see his son and GC while his wife is excluded from any contact.

Too many assumptions are being made here. Janejudge you have posted about not having to take on the responsibility for a parents grief, and that as the son is not the parent, he shouldn't have to act like one. Where has it been said that either of these things has happened here?

I know that where there is estrangement, maintaining relationships with some family members and not others is often the case and doable Bibbity. That said, having a relationship with only one parent when the parents are married to one another is fraught with difficulties and the potential damage that may be caused to the parents relationship should not be underestimated and should IMO be very carefully considered by all parties.

From the OP "...... it is extremely difficult for my wife knowing I am seeing them. I am struggling with it also. What to do?" It looks as if the current arrangement is not working doesn't it and in all probability will be unsustainable.

Yes, the very fact that its being discussed here shows how uncomfortable Essendon is.

If you are in an equal relationship with someone it would be very hard if someone else does not treat your spouse well or inclusively. I would be uncomfortable with leaving my spouse out, too.

Without knowing what the lady has said or done, makes it hard to know what to suggest, I'm struggling to see the sons POV without these facts. I'm sure he hs good reason, but dont know for certain. I can only answer the question from a married person;s viewoint.

victim
Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
Related to victim: Victim of crime
vic·tim (vĭk′tĭm)
n.
1. One who is harmed or killed by another, especially by someone committing a criminal or unlawful act: a victim of a mugging.
2. A living creature slain and offered as a sacrifice during a religious rite.
3. One who is harmed by or made to suffer under a circumstance or condition: victims of war; victims of an epidemic; victims of poverty.
4. A person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of: the victim of a cruel hoax.

The OP, his wife and his son are all victims of a circumstance which has caused them harm. Being a victim does not always have to be in cases of cruel and unjust treatment. So yes, it is relevant to say that everyone in this scenario is a victim. Because they are.

------------------------

"My situation with my m.i.l. is irrelevant. This is about a father being able to see his son and GC while his wife is excluded from any contact."

Actually, this is post about a father trying to make a very difficult decision that will affect the rest of his life. Every single person in this family is in a rather bad situation, through no fault of their own.

Neither of our scenarios are relevant to the OP, though I explained mine because I felt it was similar enough to his scenario to support the fact that I suggested what the possible impact will be on his relationship with his son and grandson.

The OP asked and I was honest about what impact a similar decision had on my relationship with my father. A scenario that could in fact become true the OP's case as well.

I agree that this whole scenario is likely to be unsustainable, which is why I suggest the OP look at every possible consequence of his decision.

OnwardandUpward

Yes, the very fact that its being discussed here shows how uncomfortable Essendon is.

If you are in an equal relationship with someone it would be very hard if someone else does not treat your spouse well or inclusively. I would be uncomfortable with leaving my spouse out, too.

Without knowing what the lady has said or done, makes it hard to know what to suggest, I'm struggling to see the sons POV without these facts. I'm sure he hs good reason, but dont know for certain. I can only answer the question from a married person;s viewoint.

I think the problem here is that people are looking for justification for the estrangement in order to form an opinion to advise the OP.

Any of us could say what we would do based on our own experiences. But it is all irrelevant. Really what the op needs is support with the fact that his family is hurting and understanding of his enormous grief of the fact that both his wife and son are hurting which in turn affect him and his grandson.

My experience allows me to say I know how it feels loosing my dad after my moms behavior and your experience allows you to know how how it feels to lose a child and rely on your husband for support.

Both experiences suck to be honest, putting it mildly. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and if my experience can help the OP then I am thankful for that.

Thank you for your kind responses. My wife had a traumatic childhood with an alcoholic violent father. When our daughter was diagnosed with Leukaemia we went through a 3 year battle that ended with us turning off life support. She was 9. My wife was diagnosed with complex ptsd 6 years after our daughter died. This period before diagnosis was extremely difficult, however once my wife found out the diagnosis she was diligent with seeing a psychologist for many years. Also my behaviour gradually deteriorated as l wasn't able to grieve and l used dysfunctional behaviors to cover the pain. We have 4 sons who have all been impacted in some form. My son who has estranged his mother suffers from major anxiety especially around his mother, so l can understand his decision but my wife has done the work, so it's very sad. We are trying to piece the family together.
Essendon

Essendon: I am so sorry for your loss and the struggles of your family. I am hopeful that your son does the same work that your wife has done in order to heal and you can all move forward as a family.

Have you spoken to him about his mental health and anxiety and sought a way forward with him that includes his mother?

OP

A cancer diagnosis, especially in a child, is devastating

However, your wife addressing her PTSD does not erase what happened during those 9 years - the plate is still broken.

He needs to heal at his own speed, with unknown timetable

Essendon Thanks for coming back
-Also my behaviour gradually deteriorated as l wasn't able to grieve and l used dysfunctional behaviors to cover the pain-

Totally understandable but interesting that your son isn’t “punishing” you, only his mum.

Is there any room for mother and son to have any family counselling
Do the other sons accept their mum? How old were the boys when their sister died? Did you both neglect the boys in your grief I m still not really understanding what happened to cause this huge divide Presumably you were both in such turmoil that you both handled it in ways you wished you hadn’t but why only one being punished ?

Essendon your son needs to heal and you have stated clearly why he can't do that around his mum.

Mum has done her own healing and it took a long time, your son needs time too.

If you break ties with him, he is going to heal away from you both and he may not fogive you for not supporting him through this time.

His childhood has been traumatic, that can be extremely hard to come back from because it is the time of brain development.

When he has come far enough then hopefully he will be able to take steps for you all to heal together. Until then it's very important you maintain a loving relationship with him, if you don't you will victimise him all over again with another parent that is not emotionally available to him which will just repeat his trauma.

I agree with the above post. I think it’s important that you maintain the current relationship with your son and GC.

It seems that your son would have been quite young when your daughter died, (commiserations to you all for that), and it must have seemed to him, at a young age, that he’d lost his sister (physically), and then lost his parents emotionally. Obviously, for whatever reason, he has found it easier to”forgive” you than he has his mother.

I know that a child bereavement can cause a massive reaction in a family. We lost my baby granddaughter 18 years ago, and the shock and grief rip through a family, often leaving havoc behind.

Your wife couldn’t help how she was, and it’s good that she sought treatment. You said your behaviour was less than ideal, and it’s good that you’ve turned that around. But, if your son still feels anxious at the thought of his mother, then he is still suffering, and needs your support.

I don’t know if he’s had any sort of help to try and assist him in laying the past to rest, and to move on in a healthy emotional way, but that might be an idea for him to consider.

If he can do that, with your support, then he might reach a point where he could have an honest conversation with his mother, where she would need to acknowledge the pain she has caused him, albeit while she was emotionally fragile herself.

In the meantime, I would keep up the actual contact with him and your GC, as if you reduce it, he will feel abandoned all over again. And, to be honest, your grandchild has probably bonded with you, and wouldn’t understand why s/he didn’t see you any more.

It isn’t nice for your wife, but I would imagine, if she’s had treatment, she understands where your son is coming from, and realises this process will take time, going at HIS pace, for them ever to get any sort of relationship going again.

I hope you resolve it, it’s an awful situation for all of you.

It's very good of you to come back with some more information especially about such a heart breaking situation Essendon.

I thought as Bluebell has, that it's interesting that your son has estranged his mother a a result of you both understandably struggling with this terrible loss. You have said that you "used dysfunctional behaviours to cover the pain" and yet he is prepared to see you and for you to see his child.

We cannot undo what was done in the past and I think it's very sad that despite the time and effort your wife has put into her recovery, that there appears to be a lack of understanding and/or forgiveness on your son's part. Especially as he is also experiencing "major anxiety".

"the plate is still broken" but that does not mean it cannot be repaired if there is sufficient love, willingness and an attempt to understand the reasons for the past.

Has your son sought any help for his own mental anxiety? He needs to address this or he will allow it to further damage his relationship with mother and himself. If his mother's mental health and associated behaviour problems are his reasons for estranging her, he needs to understand that this own are just as damaging to the relationship.

He could be projecting his own feelings of anger, frustration and pain at the loss of his sister onto your wife, rather than facing them and this is where counselling could prove to be invaluable.

His expectations of his mother during that terrible time, to provide him with all the love, comfort, understanding and support he desperately needed may have been far greater than his expectations of you. This could explain why he has 'forgiven' you and is unable to 'forgive' his mother. Again, this is where counselling could be extremely beneficial.

I think it may be worth you considering that while you continue to visit with your son and GC, it may make it 'easier' for your son to ignore the problems he has with his mother, rather than being proactive in finding a way to try and resolve them.

Perhaps having regular loving and supportive contact with your son but fewer visits would be away forward with an honest explanation why you make that decision, if you do.

Victim and victimised have different meanings and once again I feel that use of word victimised is inappropriate. Understandably, both parents' ability to parent appropriately was affected by this terrible tragedy.

There is still no suggestion that the OP's wife singled out this son for cruel and unjust behaviour; that is being victimised. It does look though as if this son is victimising his mother. Unable to get past and forgive her fallibility despite having been able to do so with his father.

You do seem to see things very much from the perspective of the mother Smileless2012, and put her needs before everybody else’s. Children have different sensitivities, and even if the son who has estranged his mother wasn’t singled out by her, her behaviour has clearly affected him very deeply and he needs his father’s ongoing support. He’s the victim, not the perpetrator in this relationship. His father’s dysfunctional behaviours were clearly not of the same magnitude in his mind and he has forgiven him, probably because he had to step up to the plate and care for his sons without much support for a prolonged period. The son may never get over what has happened, and however much his mother wants to repair the relationship, as does his father there’s a chance that is impossible for their son. I really don’t think his father seeing him less is any part of the solution. I wonder whether the other boys can help to put what happened into a different perspective for him?

The son may never wish to be in contact with his mother. Sometimes estrangement is the answer and is the end solution.

Also Smileless you accuse a lot of DIL from stopping their husbands from having a relationship with their families.

Why is it any different when a wife stops a husband from seeing his children?

You say it's the selfish DIL putting her feelings first? And yet that is exactly what you are suggesting. What is the difference?

Essendon The trauma your family is experiencing is tragic.
I’m so very sorry for the lose of your daughter and the years since when you have all experienced such a nightmare.

I have no idea how I as a mother would react if I were to experience such pain but I’d think out of control and sinking into a pit of despair would about cover it.

Your wife has been to hell and back as have yourself and the rest of the family and I’d imagine it wasn’t easy for her to relive such pain in therapy. She did do that for many years and got a diagnosis. Very brave of her to do that I think. Now she has to face life head on and mend bridges with the help of family and friends.

One of your sons can’t cope with all that’s happened.
Perhaps he would benefit from doing what his mum did explore the reasons in therapy find out why he has reacted to his mum in the way he did. He seems to have been able to forgive you. Not mum. To help him to understand needs exploring. Does he have a partner,friends, in laws that supports him I hope so. His brothers what are their thoughts how are they coping with it all. Are they able to support both mum and brother equally. I do hope so.

You are in the middle of this and seem to be uncomfortable with that. You have seen what your wife went through in therapy I’d imagine and, you have acknowledged your own pain was dysfunctional. So why mum and not dad being estranged by your son might be a question you need answered yourself .

As for contact with your son I do think you need to keep this going you love your wife and your son and can’t switch off that love for either and by showing compassion and love for both might one day resonate with your son and enable him to heal. You are teaching him how to be compassionate by keeping up contact and I’m sure he knows how difficult it is for you to do that.

I hope that your wife can come to accept why you need to have contact with your son. She has shown before that she can face her pain. I hope she can do so again. It’s so sad that she needs to be doing this.

She has suffered so much already it’s tragic that she is still suffering over an estranged son. I’m assuming she’s not seeing her grandson or DIL either so If you don’t mind I’ll keep you all in my prayers that one day your family will heal and accept that we all have failings that need to be forgiven at times.
As a parent we will do what it takes to help our children.
When they are adults it works both ways. I do hope your son see this and gets some help.

It's so important to realise that our children are separate, individual people. Different from us and different from their siblings.

They may not cope with things the same way we do, what works for us may not for them.

It doesn't matter the reasons, you have to take those out for now and understand that son is anxious around mum. Healing herself does not heal him. Her way of healing may not work for him. His issues are separate to hers.

We have a responsibility as parents, even when circumstances are not our fault, even when our memories don't math theirs, how they feel matters. Estrangement is not worse than what led up to it, it is a self defence mechanism. It will be there until it is no longer needed.

This is a very complex situation, the grandmother had an awful childhood and was abused, so she had major issues to deal with. The illness and subsequent death of her daughter, coping with four young sons was too much to bear. You have to have sympathy for her, her husband could not cope either, how those children must have suffered. In a normal home I would say it’s wrong to just have one parent visit, dreadful for the wife at home, however in these circumstances, which are exceptional, I think they need to look at the bigger picture, get some routine and trust back. The mother must put her son and grandchild before herself, it’s better that the son gets the support from his father, he did nothing wrong as a child. In time he may be able to understand fuller how much his mother was a victim in all this. As someone kept away from my adored gd I know the pain involved, but I always put her first and know we can never have the closeness that we should have, but she has parents that love her, for her mental health it was better than me pushing for access and the rebuffs, unsettling for that little girl I love so much.