Child estranges one gradparent

Once it was suggested and the OP read it, it now could be one of the possibilities that he is considering. Since it was brought up, I think it is important for the OP to know what the possibilities could be if he considers it.

It is helpful to hear from other adult children who come from a childhood of emotional trauma and what they felt when their second parent did in fact chose to limit or change the amount of contact. He NEEDS to hear what could happen to his relationship with his son and Grandson if he does decide to change how things look right now.

If, at the end of the day, he decides that he does not want to see his son and grandson without his wife, he did so understanding how the relationships of others in similar situations turned out.

I really will never understand some of the things said on various threads here on GN. On some threads it is insinuated (and said) that people should not comment because they do not have the personal experience in the situation and in other threads that they should not use their personal experience in the situation to comment. Which is it?

I know you didn't Allsorts my point was that any details of my estrangement, what our ES has or has not experienced and my relationship with my m.i.l., are irrelevant to this thread, which is why I haven't mentioned them.

Yes I did Casdon. I suggested maintaining contact without visits because both the OP and his wife "are struggling" with the current arrangement.

I don't agree that posts referring to taking sides, abuse, being forced to choose between family members and victimisation, are simply in disagreement with the approach I suggested. Posts of this nature have introduced themes which the OP has at no time referred too, are purely speculative and IMO unhelpful.

As you say Madgran "Unfortunately it seems to have slipped into a sense that it is a reality for the OP which he has never suggested".

"Posts of this nature have introduced themes which the OP has at no time referred too, are purely speculative and IMO unhelpful."

You introduced posts of this nature Smileless by suggesting that the OP limit contact with his son. When you did that, the AC who also use these boards felt it important that the OP understand what the possibilities are if he did in fact follow your suggestion.

Based on the differences in our experiences, I can understand why you would suggest it to the OP. Based on my experience, I can assure you that if he did follow your suggestion it could have far reaching consequences that he may never recover from.

He needs to hear that.

I agree freedom we weren't given a huge amount of information in the OP but Essendon, can pick and choose which parts of the discussion apply and might be helpful and which aren't without thinking assumptions have been made (they haven't).

A lot of us are impacted by estrangement and speak honestly about our experiences in the hope that it might be helpful.

Suggesting that the OP refrains from visiting with his son and GC is not introducing themes freedom it is in response to his question "what to do?".

I agree that it's important for him to hear from those who can, from their own experiences, put forward possible outcomes if that decision is taken. That said, when those refer to incidents that the OP has not said have happened here, they are speculative and IMO unhelpful.

Presumably the OP wants responses based on what he has told us, not on what we think may or may not have taken place.

Essendon may I firstly say how sorry I am that your family suffered the tragic loss of your daughter, which must have been a devastating time for you all. I think it's vitally important that you maintain the relationship with your son, his wife and your grandchild. Is your wife able to cope with her grief that you see them and she can't? I do realise it must be heartbreaking for your wife to be excluded, but I can only see the possibility of any reconciliation with your wife if your relationship with your son continues. Has she thought of writing to your son to apologise and ask for forgiveness? Give it time and maybe a new relationship can emerge, I truly hope so.

"Presumably the OP wants responses based on what he has told us, not on what we think may or may not have taken place."

Then may I suggest that you also refrain from making assumptions on what you think may or may not have taken place. As evidenced here:

"He could be projecting his own feelings of anger, frustration and pain at the loss of his sister onto your wife, rather than facing them and this is where counselling could prove to be invaluable.

"His expectations of his mother during that terrible time, to provide him with all the love, comfort, understanding and support he desperately needed may have been far greater than his expectations of you. This could explain why he has 'forgiven' you and is unable to 'forgive' his mother. Again, this is where counselling could be extremely beneficial."

You have no idea if he has forgiven the OP, just that he has contact with him. You have no idea what his expectations of his mother were at the time, that is speculation. You have no idea if he was projecting anything onto his mother, that was not in the OP or the subsequent posts.

On fact the only thing that we do know is that the mother had an abusive alcoholic childhood, then went through the life altering experience of having a beloved child die. We also know that the OP was never able to properly grieve and the son is greatly affected by his past and he has anxiety about his mother, enough so that he has chosen not to include his mother in his life.

It is not unreasonable for you to offer a suggestion based on your experiences. What I don't understand is why you object so strongly to others who offer suggestions based on their experiences and you need to remind people repeatedly that their suggestions are unhelpful when truly the only person who can decide that is the OP himself.

It is helpful to hear from other adult children who come from a childhood of emotional trauma and what they felt when their second parent did in fact chose to limit or change the amount of contact. He NEEDS to hear what could happen to his relationship with his son and Grandson if he does decide to change how things look right now

Yes I agree. However, that can happen (by allposters, not just AC) without references and discussions about aspects that appear from the information given to bear no relevance about his family. For instance, nothing he says suggests his wife is expecting him to give up contact.

His original question is "what to do?". Describing possible things for him to consider is appropriate. So saying that he might want to consider what his wife's wishes are re him seeing son is appropriate. Going into debates on how inappropriate her possible wishes are, that it is abusive etc, when he hasn't ever confirmed those wishes to be the case, doesnt seem particularly helpful!!

Smileless, I do not know why you have singled me out as saying or inferring things I haven’t, I did not say anything about your son or mil, never mentioned them or you but you seem to think I hinted at it! Simply pointing out that estrangement can be handled differently in different circumstances. The posters question was, what to do, that is what I would do, you may well differ, but please do not call me out for what you think I might have meant.

I d just like to ask again you say you behaved in a very dysfunctional way to cover your pain, but you are accepted by your son , so my question is what on earth did your wife do that was considered worse than what you did Essendon and why she gets no forgiveness ?
Without this piece of information I don’t see how any of this conversation can be useful to you because many people are living it through their own eyes and own experiences Which it isn’t

I agree freedom that we have no idea if the OP's son has forgiven him and not forgiven his mother which is why I put the words forgive and forgiven in inverted commas.

I have put forward possible scenarios for consideration which I hope is more beneficial to the OP then references to abuse, taking sides, being self centred, selfish and victimisation.

It was not my intention to single you out Allsorts and TBH I don't agree that I have.

You posted yesterday @ 18.12 "your son didn't have a traumatic childhood or was surrounded by extreme anxiety". The point I am trying to make here is that my ES's experiences are irrelevant to this discussion.

I stated this in my post yesterday @ 19.06 which also said "what happened between me and my m.i.l., raised by another poster".

So you see you did mention my ES and I didn't say you'd mentioned my m.i.l. I said that was "raised by another poster".

I agree Madgran that "Going into debates, on how inappropriate her possible wishes are, that it is abusive etc., when he hasn't ever confirmed those wishes to be the case, doesn't seem particularly helpful".

I agree BlueBelle. That information would be beneficial but of course understandable if Essendon chooses not to give any details.

Peasblossom

Actually there doesn’t have to be “sides”.

If the wife could bring herself to say ‘Go with my blessing. Give them my love.”

It would be a gracious and loving gesture that could be the first step in reconciliation.

Absolutely agree with this. The son’s reasons don’t really matter, it’s his mother he feels the anxiety around, and it’s his mother he doesn’t want to be in contact with, not his Dad.

It’s not clear if his brothers are supporting anyone or no one.

If the youngest son has a wife, she may also have valid opinions/thoughts on the situation, as it would be her living 24/7 with her husband’s anxieties.

Dad needs to continue to nurture the relationship with his son and GC, by seeing them regularly.

Hopefully, one day, at his own pace, the son may feel able to engage with his mother again. But, he might not.

At least this way, the door to communication is being propped open, and Dad can reassure Mum about her son and GC’s well-being.

Which is the priority here.

My brother died when I was 12. He was 8, of cancer (different type than OP's daughter but cancer all the same). My relationship with my mother afterwards was never quite the same, though we were never estranged.

My mother poured a lot of herself into my brother's care, my siblings and I often felt like afterthoughts, she didn't go to concerts and games for us because 'someone' had to take care of Ricky when he wasn't up to going. As an adult it sounds reasonable enough. So Dad was the one that brought us and watched.

After Ricky died, honestly yes it seems like the parents got most of the support, kids were expected to just kinda deal with it. "Helpful" relatives would say at least you get to grow up. Mom lost herself in her grief, it seemed that she had wrapped so much up in Ricky's survival that when he didn't, she didn't know what to do except fall into a hole. We'd try to get her attention, we were her kids too. Dad wasn't the most patient after Ricky, he lost a son too, but his attention was easier to get. It may be because Dad was more task oriented, get A, B, C done. Get the kids up, to school, to practice, teeth brushed, off to bed.

There's also nothing much worse when you're a child and you hear your mother cry and cry, and you can't do anything about it because all you want to do is cry and cry too, but your mom doesn't really want to look at you (in a child's view, remember) because you're here and Ricky's not. Sometimes those words might escape out of her mouth and into your ears. She didn't mean them, but it's still a blow to a child.

And maybe Mrs OP had to "go away" for a week or longer to "get better" because of the grief resulting in PTSD, but a child sees mom going away because she can't deal with the kids that lived, so it's our fault we weren't good enough for Mom then.

As an adult, you can start to filter through some of these things, but even in the best therapeutic models, that little voice is still in the back of your head. And sometimes, even with all the work, you swear your mother looks at you like that too.

So that's the view of a child that survived a sibling. Hope it helps.

TinfoilTiara What a thoughtful articulate post presenting a truly thought provoking perspective.

A beautifully written post TinfoilTiara. I hope the OP reads it and shows it to his wife.

You've described so well how it was for you but without recrimination and with understanding, despite the obvious impact the loss of your brother had on your life.

TinFoilTiara thanks for your insight. I'm so sorry you had that painful experience and you described so well the impact of it. I hope Essendon reads it and shows his wife, too.

As Mother's we bond with our babies in the womb, so the bond is deep. A loss is devastating, overwhelming. Even with estrangement, I try so hard not to talk about my ES who I am desperately missing, but to concentrate on my remaining child instead.

My parents never lived in the moment, so when I was with them they either said how wonderful my siblings were in a way that left me feeling "less than" or they criticised them in a way that also made me want to give up. As an adult I learned from my Mother in Law that not all parents try to cause competition or negative comparisons. As a parent now I try to live in the moment and try very hard to avoid talking about the absent one. I don't want the one left to think they aren't enough.