Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

This is the text that my eldest son sent on Thursday night: “Hi how are you just seeing if you are still in hibernation and thought I would message first”. No apology for that horrible phone call in December. I said to DH I will think about it over the weekend but I still do not feel like even replying to it.

PurplePixie To be honest to me that comment reads as putting the responsibility for the gap in communication on to you and not taking any responsibility for the phone call that upset you so! IF that is the case and you read it the same way, knowing your son as you do, then that does not bode well for a future improvement in interactions between you in my view, but I would like to be wrong!. I think there are a few things that might be worth thinking about longer term, beyond the decision about responding/not responding to his text.

1. He has spoken to me like I am rubbish in the past and it has to end. In fact I feel better not having to deal with him

- I think in deciding what you do you need to take that feeling well into account, balancing it against your upset at the semi estrangement you seem to be in at the moment!

2. As DSL says, consider carefully whether an apology/discussion is important to you as a pre requisite for moving forward. Or is it just another way to experience yet more upset? Would that "red velvet rope" work better for you than an apology/discussion? Only you can know that

3. If you do reply do you want to raise the telephone call (linked to an apology or linked to trying to understand what is going on) OR do you just want to keep it very short like Smileless suggests, very non committal etc? If the hibernating reference comes from something that you said then maybe refer to it but if it a word he is using to put the onus of responsibility on to you maybe don't refer to it?

4. Think about what you want longer term. Would YOU find it easier to operate with the red velvet rope like DSL or to just leave things as they are or to instigate a full estrangement? That is so hard to consider but if you can, try to think about the longer term picture of how you feel, to help you make decisions about your shorter term response to his message.

5. Regarding your GDs I am so glad that you enjoy times with them. Certainly their comments do not sound like they have originated from them but that they are being told things that make them ask the questions. Maybe prepare yourself for when questions like that come:

Terrible childhood - "I can't answer that as that isn't how I experienced it as her mum. She was a lovely child" ...or whatever positive you feel able to say about your memories of their mum as a child.

What they will get when you die - "no idea, I'm not planning to go any time soon!"

As Smileless wisely says do what you believe is right for YOU

Well I can only speak for myself but I am just not interested in apologies. I think they are usually pretty meaningless. The perpetrator shouldn't have done the thing in the first place.

A genuine mistake is one thing and I can forgive but when actions are calculated and deliberate, and designed to inflict hurt and pain then I'm afraid I consider an apology to be worthless. What some of our ACs have done strikes me as cold, calculated and so, for me, an apology just doesn't cut the mustard.

I know I've mentioned this before but my father was a narc. His behaviour was outrageous. He would apologise and expect everything to be ok, as if nothing had happened. I quickly came to realise that his apologies were meaningless because nothing changed, he never modified his behaviour, he was soon up to his old tricks.

As I got older I ignored his apologies. He would scream at me "I've said I'm sorry, what more do you want". What I wanted of course was for him be genuinely contrite, and for him to change his ways. He never did. In the end I just drew up that metaphorical drawbridge in order to protect myself. Of course I was in the wrong for doing that. l was "cold hearted and unfeeling" and I had built "a brick wall between us". Damn right I had. And it stayed there. I was not going to dismantle it.

All this to a 13/14 year old .....What does a young girl learn from this. She learns that the only place she will ever be is in the wrong, so in the end i simply switched off and disengaged. I didn't know it then but in effect. I was "grey rocking". I didn't even know what a narcissist was. I just knew something was "off". We lived under the same roof until I was 19 and I made my escape but I more or less ignored him.

So now I don't really set much store in apologies. I don't trust them. I don't want words, I want action, I want consistency. I want to see a permanent change in behaviour, not all sweetness and light for a couple of days and then back to the same old narcissistic nastiness.

For me, it is very much a case of once bitten, twice shy. Yes I've accepted the olive branch but I'm still looking for hidden thorns, ?.

Today went beautifully. We had a lovely afternoon, the boys were so excited to see me. And we had a truly lovely time. I do think my son is genuinely contrite. I think he realises he's dodged a bullet. And I think my DIL has realised I'm not to be trifled with, that I mean what I say.

I don't think she really believed me when I said I would not be bullied and I wouldn't succumb to emotional blackmail. I think she expected me to cave in and beg to be allowed into their lives. I didn't.

I think they have had their wake up call and they finally realised that they were in danger of throwing our relationship away. They could see I wasn't going to bend, beg or plead, that I was going to stand my ground.

Only time will tell if they are truly contrite and we are back in business.

I have to say I am concerned that my son and DIL still haven't contacted his younger brother, and that they don't even mention his name. I am not going to intervene. My youngest son has asked me not to. He wants to do what have I done and hold his position. That's fair enough. I understand and I think he's right.

Maybe one day my son and DIL will realise that casting off a sibling is as bad as casting off your mother/mil and they will make amends.

Love the response. "I'm not planning to go any time soon".?.

Smiles.....I understand perfectly why you feel that it would be well nigh impossible for you to rebuild your relationship with your son and DIL. Poor Mr S (and yourself) have suffered so much. 9 years is a very long time. Even a parent's hope will surely fade eventually.

Your poor grandchild doesn't know you, and who knows what poison he has had poured into his ear. Your son will be a changed man and will seem like a stranger. So much water has passed the bridge.

You and Mr S have had to rebuild your lives. You have found a small measure of peace at last. You have had to work hard to reach to attain it. I can well see that you would be loathe to jeopardise what you have managed to rebuild. Why would you want your hearts broken again when they took so long to mend. Why would you risk it all now.

Who knows maybe one day, when he's old enough to act independently, your grandson may come knocking on your door, you can decide then,

One of my friends who is estranged from one of her grandsons has decided she will try and contact her grandson when he is 18. She knew him until he was about 9. He begged to live with her rather than with his own parents but his parents still wouldn't allow any contact. The poor boy must have been devastated. It's heartbreaking to think what that poor boy must have suffered. My friend just hopes he will remember her and won't blame her for what he might see as her abandonment of him,

How his parents sleep at night is beyond my comprehension.

More I read of what you are going through Purplepixie and DerbyshireLass and others going through the same thing. I am very glad my son wants zero contact.

I wouldn't except an apology from him as what he has put me through he has done for his and my daughter's in law benefit. My daughter has washed her hands of them. The rest of the family can't believe he would treat me this way .

Luckily my 3 grandson's by them are to young and have probably forgotten me by now. One never had the chance to met me. So I doubt very much they know I exist .

Purplepixie unfortunately your granddaughter's are being brainwashed by their mom . But they will soon realise what she is really like. And they are getting to know you so they will beable to tell fact from fiction .
Smiles , DerbyshireLass and Madgran have given you plenty to think out and sound advice. I can't add anything to that.

I am glad you have your loving caring younger son . ?

That novel might be a fair while lol Whiff. It's good to get well prepared for appointments. It's easy to get overwhelmed with what you are being told and forget your questions. Hope it all goes well.

Oh my goodness, those questions from your grandchildren purpleP. That's heartbreaking. Of course, the little mites have no idea of the impact of those words but that those thoughts are being voiced to them is really upsetting. As for the text from your son, I think you should mull it over for as long as you need. We can't just switch our emotions on and off to someone else's agenda.

Sounds like you're doing a great job of juggling everyone's feelings DSL It's a shame others aren't so careful of yours, but as you say, you can be the bigger person. I'm glad things went so well for you today.

As you say Smiles - we can all only do what feels right for us.

Some very sensible suggestions there Madgran.

We had lovely sunshine today and pottered in the garden. Best get to serving out chicken dinner now. Have a good evening all.

Derbyshirelass so glad your visit went well and how lovely that your grandsons were excited to see you? How old are they BTW?

I hope that time will show a lasting change and I certainly understand your wariness!

I don’t think a true narcissistic person can alter. They can pretend to for their own advantage, can be sweetness and light, but it can’t and doesn’t last long, it’s just a means to an end I’m afraid. I’ve read that much on it, experienced it, I think I could write a book. You can alter the way that you react to them, yes, but its a game of continuous cat and mouse, it can last years, but the axe falls eventually. In the end your nerves are in tatters, I couldn’t live my life like that because you’re still being controlled, can never let your guard down or relax. I agree with the sentiments Whiff expressed, you don’t treat people that way there really is no excuse. At least you know where you are and rebuild your life. It’s very sad for all concerned, the partners go along with it most of the time because they love them and have their family together, they are conditioned to it somehow.

You are so right, Allsorts. My father kept it up till the day he died.

Personally I think narcs are more to be pitied than feared. They are never happy, never satisfied and they carry within themselves the seeds of their own misery and destruction. They all meet their nemesis in the end, everyone in their orbit wises up and walks away, They are left shunned, isolated and alone.

Madgran.....my grandsons are 16 months and 3.5 years, and full of beans. Quite exhausting. ?.

Well today it's back to grey skies and drizzle here but at least we have had a foretaste of spring. It wont be long now.

Whiff.....just want to wish you well for your appt. tomorrow. All the luck in the world.

I have been in quite of lot of pain this last few days. No idea why because I haven't overdone things this week. I think I'll try and book a massage, it helps. Just keep up with the yoga and self help.

Hey ho. Nothing that a fortnight in the Bahamas wouldn't cure, ??

Thank you to everyone for all of your kind words of wisdom. I am still not ready to reply to my eldest son’s text. No words can describe how I felt as he rained down those horrible words to me on that phone call. The words felt like knives chopping up all the bits that he had previously missed! If we get back in touch then business in his head will be back to usual - I am not prepared to go back to those days.

My youngest son called yesterday and he said to do just what I feel right with but people like my eldest son cannot be allowed to carry on like that. I know my DIL backs him all the way yet she can be quite nice when he is not around. He is a bully just like his dad. My youngest son also said that is dad his still getting to me but through my eldest son.I agree.

I cried when I waived my youngest son off yesterday as he was tired after a long drive that day and I was worried about him getting back ok. He phoned later and said that he was off to bed but he did feel tired and a bit anxious. I hope he is ok today. I would be finished if it wasn’t for him.

Back to painting a snow scene today. Catch up later but thank you to everyone. You keep me sane.

I agree with what you have said about apologies DSL. You do or say something that hurts someone, as soon as you realise that hurt has been caused, you apologise.

How can you apologise for causing estrangement that goes on for years? How can you apologise for not allowing your parents/p's.i.l. to see and know their GC? How can you apologise for the pain and confusion caused to GC and their GP's when the relationship they had is suddenly taken away?

Are we supposed to believe that they suddenly have an epiphany, that they realise that the weeks, months or years of no contact is wrong? That they had no idea how much pain and suffering their behaviour has caused?

Then there's the repeated periods of no contact, the parent(s) left in no mans land, not just once but time and time again. An apology can be genuinely given for the first time, but means nothing if it happens again.

Thank you DSL only those of us who have any experience of estrangement can understand how parents who love their EAC could ever see that they're safer without them in their lives.

I'm so pleased that you had a good day yesterday and hope it will be the first of many.

I feel that way too Whiff, there's a lot to be said for no contact. At least we are spared the roller coaster of mind games. It's awful to be in the position we're in but at least we know where we stand.

Do let us know how you get on tomorrow.

Glad you enjoyed pottering around in the garden hugshelp; sunshine and fresh air is good for the soul, even when it's cold outside.

You're right about narcissists Allsorts, they don't change, they simply move on. If they lose a victim, they find another one. If they lose support they find others to take in to support them, and if they lose the person/people they've been able to control and manipulate, they replace them too.

You're still in a stressful situation with your son and d.i.l. and as we all know, stress often manifests in physical ways. A massage sounds good, a fortnight in the Bahamas even better.

PP try to put whether or not to reply to the back of your mind. Lose yourself in the wonderful paintings that you do.

There's no rush, so take your time x

Thank you Smilesless - I will do. I am still hurting inside and cannot put words together to say that will make any sense. My birthday is at the end of March so lets see what happens then. A midday meal has been arranged by my youngest son on the day with DH,myself and him. Then he will have to head back to his apartment on the afternoon. DH said he wanted to do it - well I can do without that kind of hassle right now. I said to DH that he has arranged my birthday for quite a number of years in the past and my youngest son just wanted to do it this year. Arrrrghghghghghghghghg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All ok now and the toys are back in the pram. Back to painting - catch up later.

It's funny that when you are stressed or don't want to think about what has happened in your life. Crafts and hobbies than absorb your hands and minds give you peace. You can just lose yourself for a few hours and it makes you feel able to cope with what ever life has to throw at you. Same with decluttering , planning holidays and what you want to grow in the garden. Normal everyday things. They don't seem much but for me it makes a difference. It's means I am living in the present and planning for the future. The past has gone. Can't change that . But have control over the now and future. ?

Pixie.....sorry to hear you are struggling so much. ?.

I think you are very wise not to give into knee jerk reactions, just step back a little and try to focus on things you enjoy. Play the long game and only make your next move when you feel strong enough. Give yourself time to think.

Smiles you are right, my fibro is definitely stress related. I don't think I need to Labour the point how stressful the situation with my son and SIL has been and how the stress has impacted my physical health and well being. Constantly feeling drained and exhausted. I think we all feel that way and can relate.

Well now I'm determined to fight back and reclaim my health, my energy and vitality. I need to lose some weight and get much fitter and stronger. Yesterday I stocked up on "healthy food" and my campaign now begins in earnest. Time for serious TLC.

So today I started with a long overdo visit to my aesthetician.

As I have mentioned before about 15 years ago I had surgery for skin cancer which left my face a little lopsided due to the amount of skin that had to be removed. So every so often I have some "Tweakments" to redress the balance and make my face more symmetrical. Skin stings a bit from the injections but my face looks better already.

My doctor always advises me to rest after a treatment so a nice quiet afternoon now, maybe do a bit of hand sewing. Might have a browse on eBay, see if there are any amazing bargains.......

Pixie. I am a bit worried about my younger son too. I know he is very upset at the way his brother has treated him. He feels very hurt and rejected.

His new job often entails a lot of driving and at times he has to work away from home, staying in hotels for several nights at a time, It sounds glamorous, but it isn't, it can be a very lonely existence, inadequate sleep and not always the best food choices available. It will take its toll and I can't help but be concerned.

Once a mother always a mother. ?

No matter how old they are we still fret over them. We still want to nurture and protect them.

All of which makes the behaviour of our EAC all the more difficult to fathom......deep down surely they must realise what they have thrown away.

Pixie the paintings you have previously posted are beautiful. Like yourself when painting, I find I can't think about anything else as I get so absorbed it's almost like meditation! Look after yourself and as Smileless says maybe put your choices to make to the back of your mind at the moment .

Sorry you're suffering DSL. That massage sounds like a good idea - even better if it was in the Bahamas. Grey, cold and constant rain today, here.

Do enjoy the painting PP. It sounds like good medicine for the soul.

I don't know when I first heard of Narcs allsorts but it seems to be a term that is used a lot now. When I google what it means, I feel as though I know a few people that fit it to a tee, but I don't know if that's just me not really understanding it.

You are right Whiff - doing things that feel creative brings me a peace of mind like nothing else. That and getting out into nature. Lovely words about letting go of the past.

Admin day for us. Yuk. But it's done for the mo. Might as well do it while the rain is pouring.

Madgran, perhaps I have no right to say this as I obviously got things wrong. However here’s my twopennorth to that message you received from your son. It obviously bothers him, so there’s care there. I would very carefully decide what it is you want your relationship with him to be and then respond to him. In my case brushing things under the carpet, not confronting it was wrong, it kept me hanging on for years. I am now an abandoned parent, no chance of a reconciliation, because I found out too late, too much hurt had gone before and she’s happier without me.
I wouldn’t wish what I’d gone through on anyone. If you can listen to him and he to you, can justify his feelings however misplaced, that’s how he feels, but not his treatment, come to some compromise, maybe you can avoid this awful finality. It’s dreadful listening to how simple things were taken the wrong way, your failings, never theirs but in order to go forward you have to listen. Perhaps after I’ve said you have already done that and if so I apologise.
Permanent estrangement from a child however old that are, is a pain like no other and I’ve had a lot. In the end it has to be that though to keep your sanity.
Hugshelp I think Narc is a term used too often, used to describe someone very selfish if they doesn’t want a particular person in their life, but can love others and be thoroughly nice, they just have that very selfish streak, they could want you out of the way because it’s taking love away from them, they hate a person for some reason, usually jealousy, but they are not narcisstistic Cause irreparable damage though.
I also think there’s too many entitled people out tgere, if one thing goes wrong you’re off the scene they have unreal expectations of what they think they are owed.

Allsorts I think you meant Purplepixie not me in your last post re a message from her son. You give good advice though

Saw the urologist this morning. He was lovely . Made me laugh he said are you from South Africa. Been taken for a Brummie before. But come from different part of the West Midlands.

He thinks I had an infection that was hard to get rid of. But is arranging for an ultrasound to be sure everything is ok with my kidneys . Had an internal. Wasn't until I got home needed the loo and change my panty liner incase any gel came out. Then I realised I had put my knickers on inside out ?????. So clean knickers and tights. Hope that gave you a smile. ?.

As much as we are all suffering at the hands of our children. And I expect they are revelling in the fact they have hurt us so much. But the best thing we can do is that will really annoy them is to live our lives to the full. And prove that we don't need them to make us happy we can do that for ourselves. Hard to do I know but we are the parents. When they where naughty as young children and adolescents there where consequences why do they think just because they are adults and parents they can get away Scott free .

My son has destroyed any trust I had in him and can never forgive him or my daughter in law. But zero contact has given me some peace . Have wobbles but get through them . But my husband dieing has hurt me more than anything they have done.

So I am living the life I want and am happy. Hope you all have the sunshine.

Glad your trip to the urologist went well Whiff. That did make me laugh about your pants though.

Allsorts - thank you for your words but I am not ready to reply to his text yet - not sure when I will be.

I cried when I got up this morning - Just feel so low this morning. Shopping done and DH busy with his car stuff. I just feel like a discarded spare part today and cannot get this emptiness out of my head. I feel so low today.

I normally get mistaken for being Irish but I am from the North East. DH found it so funny when a neighbour sent me a happy St Patricks day card. Noooooooo! I was born at County Durham and I will always love the place with all of my heart. Just wished I was back there amongst my lovely friends.

PurplePixie I am not ready to reply to his text yet - not sure when I will be.....I cried when I got up this morning - Just feel so low this morning. Shopping done and DH busy with his car stuff. I just feel like a discarded spare part today and cannot get this emptiness out of my head. I feel so low today

Try to find ways to spoil yourself if you can. Little things that are a treat for you. It is very hard when having a "low day" and even more important to look after yourself.

If you know that you are not ready to do anything about your son's text then don't. Take care

Pixie.....??. Keep your pecker up, you'll get through it. You are stronger than you know. We all are. I still think of myself as a Warrior Queen.?. Sorry if that upsets people but it's my way. When my back is against the wall I come out fighting, I might need time to lick my wounds first but I always come back with my head held high, stronger and more determined than ever.

Pixie......as for you, what you do now, well only you can decide what's right for you. But if I could give my take, say how I see your situation.

It strikes me that's your son seems to be trying to reach out to you. Obviously you know him better than I do and more importantly you know yourself.

However, I can't help but wonder if, rather than keep ignoring him, would a short non committed reply actually hurt. Might a simple reply that didn't ask questions or seek answers, basically just an acknowledgment, be a way of reopening communication, a way to negotiate a way out of the mess.

He has made the first move, and the ball is now in your court. It seems as if he is tentatively offering an olive branch. Ok I concede there's no apology or admission of guilt but at least he has made an overture. I think that must have taken a bit of courage on his part. He has been brave enough to put his head above the parapet, now it's your turn to respond.

I can understand that you are probably terrified of what might come next, but realistically could it be worse than not knowing, I often think there's nothing worse than uncertainty.

I know It might sounds as if it's easy for me to say because I am currently basking in my sons and DILs affections at the moment and I'm happy that is the case. However, I genuinely have no way of knowing whether it's a temporary truce or a lasting peace. Only time will tell. I am under no illusions about what could still happen. I could still be discarded if Madam decrees it.

I decided to accept my sons and DILs olive branch without pushing for more. I felt it was necessary to let them "save face". I would never grovel or debase myself seeking for forgiveness and I don't expect anyone else to either, especially my son or DIL.

As I said yesterday, it's not my job to grant absolution, if that's what they want, they need to see a priest.

Pixie, What I'm trying to say is would it be better for you, both in the short term and the long run, to try and put your hurt, pain, anger and resentment to one side and accept the olive branch at face value.

I honestly believe that holding onto all that pain only serves us ill. If we hold on to it and keep it all locked in we can't heal and we can't move forward out of the impasse. Maybe answer him, give him a second chance, whilst letting him save face.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my view is we only get one life. I think Whiff is spot on, the best we can do is to live the best life we can, whatever happens,

I know my approach won't suit everyone, some may think I'm too soft, a pushover in fact, However, I take the view that I'm 70, how much time have I actually got left. If I had refused that offer of the olive branch the situation with my son and DIL could have dragged on for years. I didn't want to waste any more time, holding out for the magic words "I'm sorry". To me argument was clear cut, accept and move forward. If not now, when.

Life isn't all rainbows, and unicorns and puppies.....it is often cruel, unjust and unfair. But it's the only one we have and I'm intend to live mine to the max, not waste my precious time on waiting for the perfect resolution. I want to know and enjoy my grandchildren now, not maybe have to wait until they are 18. I might be dead by then.

Anyway today I made an executive decision......

Taking a cue from one of my husbands mantras. "Why have a dog and bark yourself" I have decided to delegate some of the outstanding jobs.

Thanks to my fibro and arthritis it now needs to be less a case of DIY and more one of GSI (Get Someone In).?. So I rang my "little man" and he's free in a couple of weeks. Gives me time to source the materials and get organised,

Big push now to get the house market ready - hopefully by around Easter. I am itching to make the move and start my new life.

So pleased your appointment went well Whiff and yes, you did make me laugh.

PP so sorry you are feeling low. Do they have any comprehension of what their behaviour does to us? Can they really despise us so much that they simply don't care? If they do then we're better off without them.

The only person your approach needs to work for is you DSL and for me, if I'm having a wobble or two, putting on my Warrior Queen crown makes me feel better.

A very productive admin day today. This week's jobs are planned on a day to day basis so I van get everything done for Saturday because we're off to our lodge for 2 weeks.
So far, so good.

So looking forward to it as we haven't been since November. We arranged with the site manager to give all of the outside including decking a thorough clean, so when we arrive it will be gleaming.

Did the same last year and it was worth every penny. Feel a bit lazy but it's a big job and gets the year off to a great start.

Choir tonightso looking forward to exercising my vocal chords.

Purplepixie hope you are feeling happier. And had a relaxing time doing your beautiful paintings. You will know the right time to answer your son. Just do it in your own time.
?

Glad I made you laugh Smiles. Sing your heart out tonight and have fun.

DerbyshireLass we are all Warrior Queens here because we don't give up. Ok have wobbles and our crown get lopsided but we soon have them straight again.

I have always had men in to do work. Mind you did impress myself last year painting my garden fences and varnishing my bench. Which will need doing again before I have it put out.

The nights are staying lighter spring is on the way . And we alter the clocks this month. ?