Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

What does everyone think of Bel Mooney's advice in today's paper?

Help free me from this living grief

Dear Bel,

I have been in a living grief for many years because of my situation. I am not a ‘whole’ person and never will be again unless things change. It’s hard to hold on to hope when all attempts to mend things are hopeless.

It began more than 30 years ago — too long a story. After my difficult marriage ended, my youngest daughter, then 16, became a victim of the situation. I’ve been excluded from her life ever since.

Then, 15 years ago, her twin brother also shut me out. My father was dying and my son’s wife interfered, causing upset for Mum. I asked her to mind her own business and stop phoning Mum, and instead help her husband through that distressing time.

I feel like a stranger in my own life — robbed of what I should have had with my whole family. I have four girls and a boy, but since two have chosen to exclude me I do not know three of my grandchildren. I treasure time with the others who do want me, but there’s always something missing.

There is a photograph of all my children, and their spouses and children, with my ex-husband and his wife in the centre.

I have no problem with his wife, who was not to blame for the marriage break-up. But I’m heartbroken that I don’t have my own version of that happy picture.

I have a wonderful husband, without whom I would not be here. I count my blessings and my faith is important. But my sleep is often disturbed by heartache and longing. Coping with my see-saw existence is becoming harder. I am a fit and active 73-year-old, but I’m so tired.

Pamela

The phrase ‘living grief’ is usually associated with the long-term stress and pain of looking after very sick and/or dying people, followed by another grief when they pass away. Or any loss which does not seem to change with the passage of time.

For you, it is living with permanent estrangement from your twins. For some reason your daughter probably took the side of her father, 30 years ago.

Some 15 years later, at another time of great stress, you quarrelled with your daughter-in-law and your son never forgave you.

In your long letter, you explain that you tried to make up, to no avail. Your sense of rejection and loss is profound, and it is hard to see what you can do about it — other than learn to live with the reality of your life, calming the happy-sad-happy see-saw of your mind.

I understand your frustration that, while your ex-husband and his wife can treasure a photograph of them with the whole family, you cannot.

If that lack is, in fact, a consequence of your own past mistakes, it doesn’t make the sadness easier to bear.

Yet surely you must move on? For if you fail to come to terms with what has happened, you risk ruining the life that you do have with your beloved husband and three out of your five children.

By brooding over the idealised symbolism of the ‘missing’ photograph, you place yourself permanently on a spike of longing and loss.

This is to suffer pointlessly — and at the expense of all the happy snaps you must have of good times spent with the rest of the family.

You say you count your blessings — and that is the only saving grace. Count them more.

I believe we can help to heal ourselves with small, symbolic actions. I could suggest various things to aid you in accepting the reality of your life — sadness and all.

But I’ll choose just one. Why not buy yourself a present of a pretty, heart-shaped locket?

Instead of putting a photograph inside, I would get the finest felt-tip pen and write out the names of your five children and those of all the grandchildren on two pieces of paper, to fit both sides.

Take trouble over this. Wear the locket every day. Take a deep breath and hold it as needed.

Buy yourself a present is that supposed to make that poor woman's life any better. She is talking through her bum hole.?

Estrangement is a living grief. You grief for your estranged children or child and grandchildren. Over time you come to live with it . But that loss never goes away. At time it's like a tidal wave that overwhelms you.

How can anyone give advice if they have never felt this pain. Trouble is people will believe her. It's a job to her not her life.

There's a saying about walking a mile in someone's shoes but can't remember it correctly. If she has personal experience of estrangement she wouldn't have written that .

So sorry Smilesless about your beautiful pet. I know how you feel as I had to say goodbye to my cat back in 2019 (5th Nov). She was my little best friend and 20.5 years old. I still have a good cry about her. Sending you love and hugs.

I haven’t been on here for a few days as I have had the headaches from hell. The dr thinks it is sinusitis plus neuralgia! What a time. Today my head and face feel sore. He gave me a nasal spray, Sudafed plus some other medication (Can remember what it is). Anyway, I was shattered when I saw him after I hadn’t had a good nights sleep in ages. So the other medication is a mild antidepressant to take at bedtime to help to relax me. I did sleep ok last night. So time will tell. I wanted to just sit in the drs and cry as I have been so low lately but I didnt.

My youngest son will be home next saturday until Sunday afternoon for my birthday. Just the 3 of us going out for a Thai lunch on the Sunday and then out for a drink on the nighttime with DH. I dont want a big affair, which is just as well with both my eldest “children” being estranged.

So wearing a locket round your neck heals a broken heart?? Why not go the whole hog and suggest that the poor woman wears as a silver crucifix to fend off vampires or a St Christopher medal so she never has an accident whilst travelling.

Honestly what twaddle. Dangerous and ignorant twaddle at that. I can't believe they give people like this print space. This kind of rubbish is straight out of a 50s womens' magazine designed to keep women in their place. That kind of "advice" should have been consigned to the history books long ago.

No wonder estrangement is still seen as a taboo subject when columnists and journos continue to sweep the issue under the carpet with a few tided out platitudes and when many therapists still actively encourage AC to treat their parents as scapegoats.

I must admit Bel Mooney often astounds me with her lack of perspicacity and self awareness but that one took the biscuit. Time she was shown the door. Her "advice" does more harm than good.

Pixie hope you have a lovely birthday. Small celebrations can be just as lovely as a huge bash. Tbh I prefer them but maybe that's just me.

Did you reply to your sons texts in the end.

Another lovely day, although a bit of a chilly wind. After my exertions yesterday with the fence painting I'm just having a gentle potter about today. Getting my hair cut this afternoon. I really need to go to B@Q but can't fact it.

Tired out not tided.

Pixie hopefully you will be fighting fit for your birthday next weekend. Being with your son and husband is just the tonic you need. ?

Most ingenious getting those tubs sorted out Whiff. I must say I'm quite good at improvising though my DH often shakes his head at my weird innovations. Glad you enjoyed the rest of the day too.

I don't like that advice at all. Elless. We have all had our hearts broken by estrangement. For me, the though of wearing a heart around my neck to constantly remind me of that fact would be torture not solace. I take my solace from the things I do that give me pleasure and the people that I do have in my life, not from objects that constantly remind me of my loss. I really can't think of much worse than what she's suggesting.

Bum hole indeed whiff. You did make me laugh, though.

Agree with everything you said on the subject too DSL.

We had a cleaning day today. We're having a short break in Derbyshire from Monday, so wanted to give the house a good clean first - as you do. Haven't had any kind of break or holiday for a good few years so it will be lovely to have one before getting into the last push to get the house ready to market.

Sorry, I somehow scrolled past your post Ppixie. The headache sounds awful. I get sinusitis quite often and heaven's knows that's bad enough. It takes a couple of days for me to feel the benefit of the spray, but I find it helps a lot. I do hope you feel better soon, ready to have a lovely birthday.

I agree with others. She has never experienced estrangement. If faith has helped the writer then that's great. It helps me too. There is no cure and a locket is the only answer she could think of. She should have just said I've no idea mate. Just keep on keeping on. Churchill said Keep Buggaring On didn't he. I've just ordered a book based on helping myself through hard times which is faith based. Because I know without a doubt I'm going to need it as I go through this estrangement. I'm fine for a while, then I think of my grandchildren and away I go again. I dread to think of the future. Nothing turns out the way we think. I feel for you. But ignore the agony aunt advice. I try to think of others and I don't know why that helps but it does. M often on the look out for patterns to knit for others. Like the seafarers charity for example. I know there are other in a far worse situation than me. Those poor kiddies in Ukraine. The elderly in bomb shelters etc. I may knit somethings. That's what help me.

Wearing a locket? What planet are they on?

I haven’t got in touch with my eldest son yet because I want to wait until after next weekend when it’s my birthday. To get in touch now would have him saying “ she only got in touch to get a present” - I dont want a one. I want nothing that they have.

Headaches, sinusitis and neuralgia not too bad today - so the medication must be starting to work. One of my friends phoned me last thursday and I couldnt stop crying. She said she felt bad leaving me that way but we had to end our call. I felt hysterical. The pain was really bad and all this stuff with my eldest children doesn’t help. I texted her on the night and apologised but she said there was no need. The down side is the fact that we live 200 miles apart. I wish we lived nearer.

DH at one of his car dos this morning and I’m just going to have a relaxing day. Maybe do a bit of painting. My youngest son will be phoning later.

I wish I could help those poor people in Ukraine.

I always read Bel Mooney, she’s nice enough but lives in this wonderful home with younger husband and her big extended family there all the time. As if she’s in a bubble most of of us are not.She doesn’t understand what she’s talking about, she lost a baby and a husband, very sad I know and that does give her insight into how that feels.
Before it happened to me I didn’t realise such pain existed, unimaginable that the ones you love the most dislike you so much that they don’t care what happens to you. There are no answers, no script you can follow, nothing can touch that emptiness. So how would she know. She has no empathy outside her experiences. She’s a very well paid agony aunt that knows little. Why she’s employed I must wonder, she brings no comfort.
Mothers Day coming up, seeing all those happy duos out together, all the hey and advertising on tv, it’s the worst day for me.

Allsorts - I agree - I don’t like Mother’s Day either but this year it is the same day as my birthday. My youngest son, me and DH are going out to lunch and then he will be returning to his apartment, over 100 miles away. He is such a love and I miss him like mad. After not hearing from my daughter in 7 plus years - I am not holding out any hope, infact I don’t think I do want to see her now. I will be texting my eldest son but after my birthday has been and gone. The sadness never goes away. Such great kids and yet they both hate me. So sad but I will have a lovely day with my youngest son and DH.

Me too Allsorts, I don't go to church on Mother's day because I find it upsetting so best avoided but not so easy avoid all those adverts is it.

Enjoy your day with your youngest son and DH Purplepixie.

That’s staggeringly useless advice from Bel Mooney. As others have said, estrangement is like a bereavement, with none of the rituals that support through that. The fear of being judged by others, or given useless, insensitive advice remains along with the loss.

I'm another who tries to avoid all the mother's day hype - though it's not easy as you say smiles.

You're right the sadness doesn't go purplepixie but I hope you can find some joy from your time with your youngest son.

I could never have imagined such pain either allsorts. I doubt any of us could. A part of me hopes my ES experiences it just briefly one day so he learns to cherish all his loved ones and understands just for a moment how much pain estrangement causes. I wouldn't wish it on him, or anybody long term like most of us have been dealt it.

So we're on our wee break. We had a lovely walk and picnic on the way and the lodge is very comfy and cosy. I can feel myself unknotting and realise how much I needed this.

Smiles, just noticed, in passing, that you have lost your beloved pet. So sorry - I hope you and MrS are coping ok.
When I lost my darling Flash (big softie Rottweiler), I cried the whole night. It was a few years ago, not long after my husband left me. I think I cried more for my Flash, than for him ? I hope that made you smile. Take care xx

It wasn't until I moved here August 2019 that I bothered with mother's day. As I had years on my own after the children left home 2 years after my husband died. Until last year when there where only 2 cards on the mantle instead of 4. Even thought my mother in law was awful both the children always made sure she had nans card for mother's day and a gift .

I had an early mother's day on Friday as my daughter and family when away to Spain yesterday for a week. My daughter picked me up for lunch at theirs as I was looking after the boys later while she had her hair cut then later just while she took some baby things for a charity sale on Saturday. Had forgotten she had asked me to stay for dinner weeks ago. It was funny from the minute I got there my eldest grandson said don't look up there nannie. And every hour he said it's a surprise. In the end he couldn't contain himself and my daughter gave me the bag. But I had to close my eyes and hold my hands out so he could put each present into my hands then he said open your eyes. His 4 going on 14 minus the moody teenager bit. His brother soon lost interest as they weren't toys. He had draw a picture of some flowers in my garden as he knows I love the garden. He said he had drawn on for other nannie as well. I had bath time with them before they took me home.

Hope you don't mind me telling you about it. I know father's day was hard for both the children for years after their dad died. The first father's day my son was at college and in general studies the teacher asked everyone what they did for father's day. When my son said nothing the teacher said that wasn't nice. So my son shouted his f* dead and walked out. He never went back to general studies again . I had told the college about his dad dieing when it happened and wasn't happy a teacher said that to him. I know the teacher probably forgot but still it upset my son . The college agreed as long as he did the work for general studies he didn't have to attend the classes.

I wonder how he feels when mother's day comes around and he has taken my grandson's out to get cards and gifts for their mom and my daughter in law got cards and gifts for her mom. They will all be on display in the living room. Does he feel any guilt or does the hate he feels for me over rides that. As he said in his email he loved me but this is not love but hate . As you don't treat someone you love like this.

Pixie hope you are feeling better and been doing your beautiful paintings.

Hugshelp glad you are enjoying your break away. Hopefully you have the sunshine.

CrazyH was Flash as quick as his name suggested?

Smiles hope you and Mr S are coping with the loss of your cat. Bet the dogs have noticed he is missing.

Had my compost delivered yesterday . My blueberry plants took 75l each pot and my strawberry plants another 75 l. After planting them called it a day. My new panels for my greenhouse arrived. My daughter and son in law will put them in for me. I managed to put the one that popped out of the door back myself just had to remove part of the frame and then screw it back together again. Will have to check it works incase I put the piece on back to front before applying the silicone sealant. But will do that Friday as busy the next few days.

Take care all .

Morning all, lovely sunny day

Same here Whiff I wonder what goes through my est.D head, buying & giving gifts & cards to her m.i.l, nothing for hers, just as her H wanted. My GD giving to her 'grandma' that isn't, the grandma that fought tooth & nail to get her real grandma out of her life forever. My GD loved me as much as I loved her, we had a special bond for sure. One day she will learn the truth, what then I wonder!

Nice to hear you are enjoying your break away Hugs

It's not often I read her advice column and she's usually pretty good, but not on this occasion!!

Good to know you're enjoying your break hugshelp.

Thanks crazy. The house feels empty without him despite my friend staying with us at the moment with her 7 month cockapoo. It's very entertaining watching her's and our charging play fighting and charging around the house together.

Another beautiful day here so we're taking the dogs down to the beach.

your posts weren't here when I started to post Whiff and Yogin.

Of course we don't mind you 'telling us about it' Whiffthat is what this thread is for. Home grown blueberries and strawberries, what could be better.

I wonder that too Yogin not that I think our ES would buy anything for his m.i.l, if she hasn't been cut off again, that'll be his wife who gets her a card and pressie.

I do wonder what, if anything he thinks though because they can't avoid it anymore than we can, can they.

Whiff - that is terrible for your son.

My horrible sinusitis and neuralgia has drifted away thanks to the medication. This morning though I wanted to cry as I feel like I have missed out on so much of my children and grand childrens lives. Will they realise one day just what they have done? I don’t think so but I could be wrong.

I spoke to a neighbour for ages this morning and she told me that she is 80 this year and in remission from her cancer. Her daughters live nearby and they come over or get in touch every day. Sadly her husband died last August and life hasn’t been the same for her. She said that she had enjoyed our little chat and I felt better for it as well.

A bit of gardening this afternoon while the weather is lovely and warm and sunny. Chin up warrior queens and hugs to you all as you keep me going.

The day with your daughter sounds lovely whiff. Your eldest GS sounds adorable. Sounds like your gardening is coming on a treat too.

Glad ypu got lovely weather Yogin and ty.

Really glad your sinusitis etc has imoroved PPixie. I'm sorry you're still feeling blue though. I'm glad you and your neighbour cheered each other up a bit. Hugs to you.

The weather was glorious here and we had a lovely day out at. Carsington water. There was so much to see. More than ready for feet up this evening.

So much has happened since I last read all your posts. I can’t remember them all but I know the love and support is there for all.

I’ve had a few emergencies to deal with myself ? life takes over but I’m sorry for not responding as I don’t have the time to read as much as I did before.

Missing my beautiful granddaughter just as much as I always did but I’ve come to accept that I might never have a relationship with her again and I find that so sore. I miss her so much but my husband has serious health difficulties so he has to be my focus so In a way his Illness helps to deflect the pain of her loss.

To all of you dear ladies who are such an inspiration thank you.

?Granniesunite, I do hope your husbands health improves, he and you are what matters now.
I won’t be given a thought Mother’s Day by one of mine, but I will do as I do on my birthday and Christmas treat myself, I won’t be moping, did too much of that. Let’s all celebrate how far we’ve come and there is life after estrangement.

Good to see you Granniesunite. I hope your husbands health improves.

We should indeed celebrate how far we've come Allsorts.

Another beautiful day here. This sunshine is such a boost.